Cool new USA based company / tube amps

[Ski Bum]

Don't let any of this detract from your expectations.  This digression has more to do with Matt's demeanor as a vendor than the performance of the amps he sells, and hopefully is just a reflection of being unaware of how well informed and open minded this joint is.  Other vendors manage to negotiate the terrain in here pretty well, some not so well.  I really like the looks of his amps, so hopefully Matt will remain engaged in the discussion.  It might even earn him a sale or two.   

[CECAA850]

Not sure I want any part of all this...

 

This is mild.

[tube fanatic]

Toolshed Matt (we have to differentiate you from forum Matt, your customer!), please understand that no one on here is in the amp business.  We are not trying to steal your designs for our personal gain.  I'm long retired from doing this work professionally and limit my amp builds and other work to my local community (except for occasionally helping out forum members) and, if I am not mistaken, JP works strictly as a "local" tech wherever he lives.  Also, there is nothing proprietary when it comes to single ended amps.  Believe me, it has all been done decades ago.  You stated your operating parameters for a tube with which I am extremely familiar, and thought it very reasonable to question your rationale for greatly exceeding one of the tube's ratings.  JP raised the question of using very varied tube types under the same operating conditions.  And, while you are correct that the ears are the final arbiter of what sounds good, proper engineering practice is certainly not to be neglected.  If your amps allow Klipsch speakers to sound better than they do with others because you may be running a tube with a weird load impedance, or some other atypical parameter, then say so!  This section of the forum was created to provide any one interested with valuable information about using tube type equipment with Klipsch speakers.  Those participating here believe that the synergy allows for musical reproduction which greatly surpasses that available with solid state equipment (some of Nelson Pass' designs being a rare exception).  Along with that, we are trying to develop many easy to build, low-cost, designs which equal or surpass the sonic qualities of much more costly, commercially available, equipment.  William and I have both posted proven circuits which allow Klipsch speakers to really show off their amazing capabilities.  You, or anyone else, are more than welcome to take these designs and use them as they are, or improve them if you can, and sell thousands of them for all we care (I'd consider it the greatest form of flattery to see you make lots of $$$ using my work)!  So, please don't take my comments as criticism.  If your amps are truly better than existing designs, then please tell us what you are doing to make them so.  And, if the amp builders/designers on here develop some diy circuits using some of your methods, so what?  That philosophy certainly hasn't hurt Nelson Pass' commercial success, and it won't affect yours either.

Maynard  

[ToolShedAmps]

Well OK then, 

 

I have just sat down in my comfy chair, keyboard in hand.

 

Let me be the 1st to apologize to all those affected by this negativity. I'M SORRY.

 

Moving on, I really do appreciate the desire to learn more about what makes my amplifiers "tick", however, my initial post should have stated, "I'd be happy to answer any questions you have aside from specifics relative to operating points (trade secret)". On the other hand, I am more than happy to discuss power supply ideas, biasing topologies, the continuing debate relative to lower gain/higher transconductance vs. higher gain/lower transconductance, woodworking? Etching non-ferrous metals? Pretty much anything else.......as I think that the "Empirical" data that I have gleaned from all of the sleepless nights and time spent away from my family is worth keeping "close to the vest".

 

I'd like to tell a short story, very short. My wife is an educator in a Middle-School. The children she teaches have a saying that up until now, I really didn't know what it meant. After all, me, being a socially awkward introverted slob really didn't have cause (nor opportunity) to be impacted by its meaning. So this morning I attached a link to this very forum (like a proud papa) and what was the response? Same as the saying that the middle-schoolers like to use:  haters gonna hate. Now far be it from me to teach Civility101, but, nary a "good job" from any of you. Just sayin'.

 

Now that I've gotten that off my chest. I would like to be abundantly clear about several things, conjecture is nice, but asking is better. Lets start with what/who has influenced my designs. Better yet, lets start with, the fact that the "INVENTOR" of the grounded-cathode amplifier is LONG DEAD. Everyone's topology is derivative to some degree. I think we can all agree on that. Beyond that there are ideas that either work or don't work well at all.

Now I can lay out a load-line about as well as the next guy, get my kid to help me with a bit of the more difficult math, stick the parts in a box and wire it up. It may work, sure. But does it make music? That is an answer alluded to by another poster on this thread, it is entirely subjective, impacted by numerous variables.   I think my amplifiers make music....driving Heritage Klipsch speakers at listening levels that are not going to create substantial hearing loss. I really enjoy the music, and my goal (I'll never get "rich" doing this) is to simply help others "hear what I'm hearing" for not a lot of money. 

 

Is that bad?

 

Thanks,

 

Matt.

[Schu]

I am going to have to re read this thread... specially after seeing that Juipter capped amp on the facebook page

[ToolShedAmps]

Hi Maynard,

 

Thank you so much for the clarification. I felt that being misleading early on was the best way to preserve my true operating points. For that I apologize.

I am not Nelson Pass, nor Lew Johnson, nor Dennis Had. I have however, sold ALL of their designs (to some degree or another). If you haven't been to my website then you don't know my background. I am an "Industry Insider", having sold the bulk of the "High-End" for more than 25 years (I turn 50 in a couple of weeks). So, I know these guys personally, along with several others; Eve Anna, Dan D'Agostino, Paul Hales, David Wilson, etc...

 

Anyway, my business partner passed away from cancer a few years ago. Having a distinct "bad taste in my mouth" regarding the condescending nature of the "High-End", and knowing the "truth" relative to low-powered single-ended amps driving efficient speaker loads. Coupled with my wife having gained a full-time position as a teacher in a public school system (health care ) I decided to "pull the trigger" on my lifetime dream (built my 1st "Knight" amp kit when I was 12, amongst many others was Nelsons Aleph 1). So here we are.

 

To answer your question more specifically, I'm actually dropping B+ through a 5 watt 100v zener to G2, the "trick" is figuring out what I'm bypassing it with.

 

Matt.

[Matthews]

OK - finally, all the funny business is over -YAY-

 

now, back to work Matt!  You have amplifiers to build.  Specifically one Custom made Genesis 6

[Ski Bum]

Right on, toolshed matt.  

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ski Bum

[ToolShedAmps]

Howdy All,

 

I forgot to mention who I draw inspiration from; Thomas Mayer is probably my favorite living circuit designer. He has the technical "know-how" and "balls" (can I say that on a forum?) to think outside of the box...I love that. Secondly, I really admire Steve Deckert, the guys at Zu Audio, Mike Morrow, Zach at ZMF headphones, Mike Moffat (whom I know from when I sold Theta) from Schiit Audio, for providing me a sound business model to follow. Dennis Had, for his truly excellent CAD-300SEI that has pushed me to build something I could be proud of.

 

There are others, you know who you are.

 

But, at the end of the day, I build EVERY SINGLE AMPLIFIER, myself...

 

God Bless,

 

Matt.

[Jim]

Well this is a funny read so far. Matt, I'm glad you are getting the amp from toolshed matt. It looks very nice, and the custom stuff is something I'd probably do with say my kids faces on the faceplate.

 

Toolshedmatt, I have a question for you also, and I am probably one of the most ignorant when it comes to amp talk. But it doesn't seem that you answered any questions, just skated around them some. The one I thought was an actual question that should have been answered was the power one, the others to me don't mean much. But that's my opinion.

 

My question is this. If someone buys an amp from you,what's to stop them from posting the underside and your schematics? Again, I'm ignorant with this stuff, so I may be way off base with this, but can't anyone that builds figure out your schematics and all the other question stuff asked?

 

I would assume that discussing some of these things would also get more clients for you. I know just from speaking to Matt, we were going over several different amps and builders, and when he showed me your amp, I was very pleasantly surprised at it and the build quality. I may be off on this, but my take on custom builders, is that they will all have something to bring to the table quality wise,and sound wise, but where it's differing is where people like you go the extra step with the metal work or the wood work. I assume there are only so many options when planning an amp for schematics, but I may be off on that. I'm not saying all amps will sound the same, but aren't most done from similar schematics from the past? Won't they have similarities in them?

 

I don't want to sound like I'm attacking you either, just inquisitive on the "trade secrets" being in  a vault. I only say this because I see everyone in the tube section posting different things and schematics,and all of them are builders. There was anopther builder on here that was "chased off" due to a few negative comments, and I'm not looking to be one that chases anyone off, but if building amps is like let's say pitching, you can only throw so many variations of a curveball before everyone knows what you're throwing in your wind up.

 

I'm just curious to know if there's that much more in amp building that isn't seen that can't be discussed. Not like I can understand any of it anyways.

 

Hell, I can't even figure out how to make the symbol for the capacitors I see on here.

[ToolShedAmps]

Hi Jim,

 

I'm glad that you have asked the question. Don't worry, I won't be "Chased Off" that easily. To answer your question, I pretty much "gave away the goose" at the end of post #68. You are "right"  (and so is Maynard) when you stated that pretty much everything has been done before. The topology is a fairly standard grounded cathode amplifier, the differences are minor, but, important. As in all things (such as "Pitching"), the difference between a dirt-ball and "painting the corners", at the mound, may only be a fraction of an inch on the release.

 

So, I'll say it again, I reserve the actual operating points for myself and my customers. I understand that someone may want to buy one of my amps and then proceed to "reverse-engineer" what I've built. That's fine, unfortunately, going forward I guess I will have to "deface" all of the resistors, capacitors, etc., in an effort to protect my time investment and prevent someone from just looking at a "gut-shot" and duplicating my work. BTW, the "lifetime warranty" is void the moment someone "drills-out" the safety screw every one of my bottom-plates is attached with.

 

OK, the power question regarding Matt's amp. His amp yields nearly 6 watts running a pair of 6L6GC's, while, running a pair of my "fav's" the 6W6GT, the power output will be a hair over 3 watts. I'm NOT running grid #2 at red-line because I'm dropping B+ through a 100v Zener bypassed with something which is only allowing 173v to reach that grid. G3 is tied to ground rather than the cathode or (God forbid) the plate. I'm using CCS biasing at 40mA. The OT is a 5.7K to 8 Ohm unit with a DCR which I will NOT specify. The Pentode drivers (EF86's) are wired as pentodes, NOT strapped, I LOVE 

this as a driver, it can swing nearly 60v P-P and doesn't require a follower to lower the impedance. Well, truth be told, I actually prefer the E80F

 

I hope I've answered your question?

 

Thanks,

 

Matt.

[xxJPMxx]

Using the 6W6GT (my particular favorite for this operating point) yields a hair over 3.2 watts with 200v on the screen.

 

 

I'm NOT running grid #2 at red-line because I'm dropping B+ through a 100v Zener bypassed with something which is only allowing 173v to reach that grid.

 

Which one is it? It just seems odd you changed your operating point after Maynard pointed out it exceeds the tubes max ratings. And of course by some magical device "bypassing" a zener. In every picture you have posted there is nothing bypassing the zener.

 

I circled the diodes in green, there is an orange wire going to pin 4 on the octal sockets and nothing else. I also see you don't use any insulation on component leads that have high voltage present, and to make things worse they are in close proximity to one another, hopefully nothing touches.

 

[xxJPMxx]

with a DCR which I will NOT specify

 

Your screen is at 200v through a 100v zener, so B+ is 300.

 

 

250v on the plate @ 40mA

 

250V on the plate (w/ respect to cathode I presume) so w/ 30v bias lets say 280 on the plate measured to ground.

 

300-280=20

 

20/.04=500

 

I would guess the primary DCR is around 500 ohms.

[ToolShedAmps]

 

Using the 6W6GT (my particular favorite for this operating point) yields a hair over 3.2 watts with 200v on the screen.

 

 

 

 

I'm NOT running grid #2 at red-line because I'm dropping B+ through a 100v Zener bypassed with something which is only allowing 173v to reach that grid.

 

Which one is it? It just seems odd you changed your operating point after Maynard pointed out it exceeds the tubes max ratings. And of course by some magical device "bypassing" a zener. In every picture you have posted there is nothing bypassing the zener.

 

I circled the diodes in green, there is an orange wire going to pin 4 on the octal sockets and nothing else. I also see you don't use any insulation on component leads that have high voltage present, and to make things worse they are in close proximity to one another, hopefully nothing touches.

 

 

You, guy, are specifically the individual intent on attacking me. What have I done to warrant your disdain? I will give you one last chance to be civil.

Please read the 1st sentence of post #68. 

BTW, the turrets that I use have a hole that goes all the way through the turret. You cannot "see" the underside of the two items you have circled in green. So, if you REALLY want to dissect my work, buy one of my amplifiers. Better yet, will I see you at the event in St. Louis tomorrow? If so, then you can actually HEAR one of my amplifiers. Matt.

[xxJPMxx]

I am not attacking you at all, you are very elusive with your information and hide behind "trade secrets". I don't like that kind of corporate BS. So I am not attacking you I am attacking the way you conduct yourself and your business. You say in one sentence that you aren't in this to make money, but then you want to hide the "trade secrets" like it will hurt your sales? Are you in politics? You seem to flip flop a lot.

 

 

Yes I can't see what's under the board, correct. I just assumed you wouldn't put anything under there because it would be a nightmare to replace, and there is plenty of room on the turret lug to bypass the diode.

 

You really shouldn't be so secretive, it only hurts you in the long run. If you were more honest people wouldn't be so leary. I am only looking out for the good people on this forum that might want to purchase your amps. When people start talking "trade secrets" it means they have something to hide.

[ToolShedAmps]

 

 

Using the 6W6GT (my particular favorite for this operating point) yields a hair over 3.2 watts with 200v on the screen.

 

 

 

 

I'm NOT running grid #2 at red-line because I'm dropping B+ through a 100v Zener bypassed with something which is only allowing 173v to reach that grid.

 

Which one is it? It just seems odd you changed your operating point after Maynard pointed out it exceeds the tubes max ratings. And of course by some magical device "bypassing" a zener. In every picture you have posted there is nothing bypassing the zener.

 

I circled the diodes in green, there is an orange wire going to pin 4 on the octal sockets and nothing else. I also see you don't use any insulation on component leads that have high voltage present, and to make things worse they are in close proximity to one another, hopefully nothing touches.

 

 

You, guy, are specifically the individual intent on attacking me. What have I done to warrant your disdain? I will give you one last chance to be civil.

Please read the 1st sentence of post #68. 

BTW, the turrets that I use have a hole that goes all the way through the turret. You cannot "see" the underside of the two items you have circled in green. So, if you REALLY want to dissect my work, buy one of my amplifiers. Better yet, will I see you at the event in St. Louis tomorrow? If so, then you can actually HEAR one of my amplifiers. Matt.

 

Oops, almost forgot, I am very sorry for the quality of the photo you are using to point out my deficiencies, all of the leads on every single item is passed through CLEAR TEFLON TUBING. Although I'd prefer to use "air" or Chinese Silk, or virgin Egyptian cotton as a dielectric, none of them is as SAFE. Matt.

[Jim]

 

OK, the power question regarding Matt's amp. His amp yields nearly 6 watts running a pair of 6L6GC's, while, running a pair of my "fav's" the 6W6GT, the power output will be a hair over 3 watts. I'm NOT running grid #2 at red-line because I'm dropping B+ through a 100v Zener bypassed with something which is only allowing 173v to reach that grid. G3 is tied to ground rather than the cathode or (God forbid) the plate. I'm using CCS biasing at 40mA. The OT is a 5.7K to 8 Ohm unit with a DCR which I will NOT specify. The Pentode drivers (EF86's) are wired as pentodes, NOT strapped, I LOVE 

this as a driver, it can swing nearly 60v P-P and doesn't require a follower to lower the impedance. Well, truth be told, I actually prefer the E80F

 

I hope I've answered your question?

 

Thanks,

 

Matt.

 

This is where you lost me,lol.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Jim

[ToolShedAmps]

I am not attacking you at all, you are very elusive with your information and hide behind "trade secrets". I don't like that kind of corporate BS. So I am not attacking you I am attacking the way you conduct yourself and your business. You say in one sentence that you aren't in this to make money, but then you want to hide the "trade secrets" like it will hurt your sales? Are you in politics? You seem to flip flop a lot.

 

 

Yes I can't see what's under the board, correct. I just assumed you wouldn't put anything under there because it would be a nightmare to replace, and there is plenty of room on the turret lug to bypass the diode.

 

You really shouldn't be so secretive, it only hurts you in the long run. If you were more honest people wouldn't be so leary. I am only looking out for the good people on this forum that might want to purchase your amps. When people start talking "trade secrets" it means they have something to hide.

I beg to differ, do you drink Coke? Do you use an iPhone? Do you really think the owner of your favorite Bar-B-Que joint is going to tell you what is EXACTLY in his rub? I've had it with you. I am no longer going to respond to your attacks. FYI, my customers LOVE their amplifiers....period.

[Matthews]

Hey, get back to work Matt !!!

[Fjd]

 

Most of us have no problems sharing our schematics, I can call McIntosh right now and they will send me any schematic I want.

 

 

 

 

 

There are probably just as many companies that will not release the schematic of a current production product.  For example, Klipsch will not provide the crossover schematic for any current product they are still selling.  In some instances it has been difficult to obtain schematics for discontinued products, such as the CF-4 version 1.

 

 

 

 

And, if the amp builders/designers on here develop some diy circuits using some of your methods, so what?  That philosophy certainly hasn't hurt Nelson Pass' commercial success, and it won't affect yours either.

Maynard  

 

 

 

 

Nelson Pass does not release his schematics for any product that he currently produces and sells.  For example, you will note William's thread on the First Watt M2 amplifier schematic. it wasn't until the production run had ended and all new amplifiers were sold when Nelson Pass release the schematic to the DIY community. 

 

 

While you may be able to find a few reverse engineered knock-offs of current products or even discontinued products being sold in certain parts of Asia, the general expectation is that a DIY builder of a First Watt clone should only try to recoup parts costs when selling and not build the amplifiers to make any profit.

 

 

Now there are other examples of teasers that Nelson provides during the Burning Amp weekends and specific releases to the DIY community, but these are not the same as his current production First Watt products or Pass Labs products and are done more to foster creativity among the DIY community.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not attacking you at all, you are very elusive with your information and hide behind "trade secrets". I don't like that kind of corporate BS. So I am not attacking you I am attacking the way you conduct yourself and your business. You say in one sentence that you aren't in this to make money, but then you want to hide the "trade secrets" like it will hurt your sales? Are you in politics? You seem to flip flop a lot.

 

 

Yes I can't see what's under the board, correct. I just assumed you wouldn't put anything under there because it would be a nightmare to replace, and there is plenty of room on the turret lug to bypass the diode.

 

You really shouldn't be so secretive, it only hurts you in the long run. If you were more honest people wouldn't be so leary. I am only looking out for the good people on this forum that might want to purchase your amps. When people start talking "trade secrets" it means they have something to hide.

I beg to differ, do you drink Coke? Do you use an iPhone? Do you really think the owner of your favorite Bar-B-Que joint is going to tell you what is EXACTLY in his rub? I've had it with you. I am no longer going to respond to your attacks. FYI, my customers LOVE their amplifiers....period.

 

 

 

 

Coke, New Coke, Old Coke, Classic Coke, and Pepsi, there sure is some interesting history on trade secrets and proprietary information. 

 

In addition to my specific examples above, there are also plenty of examples where corporations do not sell parts or share what they consider proprietary information with the general public.  If you call JBL or Klipsch and tell them you are a DIY'er and want to buy parts, they will not sell the parts. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.