Minimum wage. Should it be $15?

[T2K]

 

What kind of economy do you want to live in? 

 

My own preference is for a high wage, expanding middle class economy. You can not maintain a middle class (by anyone's definition) without high wages. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that high wages for working people are the foundation or meaning of middle class. If the middle is to mean anything, it must lie between two poles. On the bottom are subsistence workers who can exist only week to week on a wage that only provides the minimum for sustaining life. On the top are the wealthy who can be defined as having so much that luxury is an every day phenomenon. 

 

Middle class should mean: ability to support a family with one income, ability to save for the future, access to health care that doesn't bankrupt the family, good housing, adequate food, access to education, and above all a semblance of security. Not luxurious, but secure. That's what occurred in the post WWII era. Blue collar skilled workers could enter the Middle Class. Not anymore. Now, to be Middle Class requires one to be a professional or quasi-professional (high technicians). Skilled labor jobs barely exist, having been replaced by either automation or offshoring.

 

 

 

The jobs that once offered wage levels that provided economic comfort from a single worker within a family unit - are gone 

 

The system is admittedly broken when there aren't enough (good paying) jobs for the willing and able workers.   

 

 

No they're not. There are still jobs that require no paper to earn 6 figures. The only thing required is actual hard work. Those employers have a hard time finding people that actually want to work. Many people now are allergic to hard work. My last employer paid trainees $30,000 a year (train 8 hrs a day- 5 days a week- 6 months). There simply isn't enough willing and able workers to fill many well-paying jobs.

 

Keith

[T2K]

Someone, anyone, please explain to me how America can realistically expect to rebuild the middle class, and the strength that a stable middle class brings, WITHOUT a return of manufacturing within our boarders.

 

Who is going to buy domestic products if the manufacturing of yesteryear returns? Anyone that feels strongly about the disappearance of manufacturing in this country should quietly ponder if they themselves helped in that disappearance.

 

Keith

[CECAA850]

There are still jobs that require no paper to earn 6 figures.

 

True dat.

[Arrow#422]

Obviously, it depends on ones geographical location.  Wealth & employment opportunity are not equally dispersed throughout the nation.

[CECAA850]

Obviously, it depends on ones geographical location.

 

Agreed, and the individual.

[T2K]

Bottom line:  If you think a person serving you is underpaid, you can tip them.  Be generous!  You don't need to wait for Congress.  Just go ahead and start tipping generously today.  Nobody is stopping you.  Tip your yard-man more.  Tip the garbage collector.  Tip the newspaper carrier.  It's all in your hands.

 

I visited the local grocery this past Sunday (rare occurrence for me) and bought some grub. The young fella that bagged my purchase pushed the cart out to my car in the rain (I felt like an old focker). I offered a tip 3 times and 3 times he declined (store policy). I demanded that he accept my cash tip and also my verbal tip. He then graciously accepted both.

 

I have thought the last few days of this young mans plans for his future. He seemed to have a good head on his shoulders. I have decided, as Jeff alluded, that this is an area where I could invest surplus funds that would actually be targeted to a person with potential. I feel good about that.

 

Keith

[T2K]

 

Obviously, it depends on ones geographical location.

 

Agreed, and the individual.

 

 

And the motivation.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Someone, anyone, please explain to me how America can realistically expect to rebuild the middle class, and the strength that a stable middle class brings, WITHOUT a return of manufacturing within our boarders.

 

The era of the mindless manufacturing jobs where an operator can make bank with very little skills is over.  Sorry but it just is.  That's what everybody is really getting at when they ask for manufacturing to come back.  You have to follow the economy and reinvent yourself into something useful.  

 

My immediate area was hit hard by this type of thing, this place used to be booming back in the day with the USEC plant.  Now it's a sad situation.  

 

Anyway, my fear isn't offshoring as much as the wave of robotics that will be here in 15 years.  They're predicting that everybody from sales to customer support will be replaced by robots sooner than you think.  Lots of minimum wage jobs will be able to be automated soon, that's not really debatable, but the powers that be are shooting higher than that.  

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Arrow#422]

So, manufacturing won't be the vehicle that builds middle class wealth.

Education is highly diluted and offers only a sliver of hope in climbing the ladder due to loss of employment opportunities.

Increases in technology and robotics will continue to obsolete many more employment positions.

What's left - Service?  More Big Brother assistance programs?  Ha!

 

Gear up maw, I think they're a'commin for our stuff and there's about to be shootin' match here right quick.

 

Class warfare, economic collapse & upheaval, whatever adjectives or dooms day scenarios you'd like to envision seem quite probable if we cannot even provide the economic conditions where one can actually earn a basic living.  

 

I'm good - for now, but I've been through too many rug jerking episodes in my career to be anything near complacent or comfortable.

[Fjd]

Do McDonald's employees still receive free burgers?  I see that a minimum wage worker in India and Afghanistan have to work almost six hours (probably more depending upon taxes) before they could buy a big mac.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Fjd

[Paducah Home Theater]

I'm telling you guys, all you need to do is learn JavaScript.  6 months worth of hardcore javascript learnin and you can write your ticket anywhere.  

 

Next best thing is database administration.  

 

I know of multiple open positions that would be the equivalent of earning well into the 6 digit range on the west coast.  

 

Nobody wants to do it.  Everybody just wants their $15 an hour.  

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Paducah Home Theater]

I can even teach you how to do this.  

 

http://www.indeed.com/cmp/NGP/jobs/Web-Application-Developer-8c44ab2638bbae6f?q=javascript

 

 

$70 an hour is $145,600 a year.  You don't even have to get out of your pajamas.  

 

http://www.vaco.com/nashville/jobs/2059700245

 

 

This is stuff that doesn't require a degree.  Companies don't care anymore.  Learn this stuff and nobody cares.  

Edited November 11, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Jeff Matthews]

I can even teach you how to do this.  

 

http://www.indeed.com/cmp/NGP/jobs/Web-Application-Developer-8c44ab2638bbae6f?q=javascript

 

 

$70 an hour is $145,600 a year.  You don't even have to get out of your pajamas.  

 

http://www.vaco.com/nashville/jobs/2059700245

 

 

This is stuff that doesn't require a degree.  Companies don't care anymore.  Learn this stuff and nobody cares.  

 

Javascript is easy.  http://www.w3schools.com/js/

 

Why is it so favored?  

[Woofers and Tweeters]

Raising the minimum wage is like spending one’s self out of debt. Labor is the largest expense for most companies. Up that expense and it will be passed along to the consumer = the people who just got a raise. Also, what are the people who get $15/hr by studying, working, or wearing out their knees to get to $15 going to do when no one has to even try gets the same pay.

 

 

Profit sharing will decrease loafing and increase profits

Flat tax will stop rewarding for earning less and punishing for earning more

EPA can stop creating problems unless they have a solution that cost the same or less, without subsidies

If one doesn’t have an earned income, they can’t vote. Don’t like it, get a job (gooberment assistance isn’t a career)  

 

There is a list of thing we can / need to change, but doubling the bottom pay isn't one of them. 

[Paducah Home Theater]

Javascript is easy.  http://www.w3schools.com/js/

 

Why is it so favored?  

 

 

It's still hokey.  I hate it to be honest.  Crazy powerful stuff going on with it though, even saw an operating system emulator wrote in it yesterday.  I mean, that's not the javascript of old where you simply get the value of a text box.  

[Jim Naseum]

Someone, anyone, please explain to me how America can realistically expect to rebuild the middle class, and the strength that a stable middle class brings, WITHOUT a return of manufacturing within our boarders.

All economics involve relativity. The term "manufacturing" has no inherent fixed value in economics, but rather a relative one. Let's suppose they're is zero manufacturing, and in its place according to number of jobs, we substitute code writing. Can we pay the code writers what we paid the manufacturers? Sure.

The employment situation is just a ladder of relative values depending on a list of factors that include skill, availability, training, safety, desirability, location and so on. Nothing has a fixed position in the economic ladder. It's all relative to the whole.

Evolving economies should move upward as they attain more leverage. Designing robots has more leverage than tending robots. Therefore, an economy based on the design and ingenuity will have higher value than one who just tends the robots. A high economy wants to offload the worst jobs and keep the best. That's good.

Within each economy the labor can be arranged by relative value. So let's say we have 10 value levels. What difference does it make if we declare the bottom value to be $1 an hour or $15 an hour or $25 an hour, as long as the relative values scale up? It's mostly arbitrary. The economy has a GDP. A value of all the economic activity. Take that total value now and imagine it distributed through all the levels of value. You could arrange to give 99% to one man, and let the other 89 million split 1%. Or you could have a million more useful arrangements. One of those other arrangements would be that the lowest level will get $15 an hour, and be clear of poverty.

All of this relative value is set by changing the knobs on the control panel of the economy. Nothing is written in stone. Nothing is part of a natural law or magic rule. Men turn the knobs this way and that by taking positions in government and industry.

Today, right now, we are producing high amounts of new wealth. It's a fabulously rich economy. One of the best in the world. There's plenty to go around. Paying the bottom rung $15 would not even create a sliver of pain for this economy. It will cost the top earners a teensy tiny bit of their massive income. Believe me, they won't hurt for the loss.

But nasty greed of the worst kind prevents those with their billion dollar incomes from turning the knob just a tiny bit up for the lowest rung on the ladder. No magic involved. No religion. No science. No economic law. Just a tiny bit of willingness to share the wealth a tiny bit.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

[Fjd]

 

Maybe I’ve changed my mind a little. My official opinion on all this is:

1. $15 is fine for the jurisdictions that require this but should not be implemented nation-wide. It should be based on the cost of living and average income for the immediate area. Two people making the same but living in Seattle vs. a rural area will have the rural guy with twice the effective income and I don’t agree with this in terms of minimum wage based on the arguments presented. It should be a local number that is set to maintain a certain standard of living in the immediate area.

 

 

 

Here is an article that touches upon a similar thought.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/08/03/map-how-much-a-15-minimum-wage-would-actually-be-worth-around-the-u-s/

 

 

Also, the following cities are examples where the minimum wage is higher than the federal minimum wage.  These are fairly new; therefore, I suspect it may be too soon for studies to determine if a quarter of the food service establishments are closing or if permits for new food service establishments have dropped, stayed the same or risen. 

 

 

Oakland, California: minimum $12.25 / hour

San Francisco, California: minimum $11.05 / hour

Seattle, Washington: minimum $11.05 / hour

Berkeley, California: $11.00 / hour

Santa Fe, New Mexico: $10.66 / hour

Washington, DC: $10.50 / hour

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Here is a chart that shows large U.S. cities that have set minimum wages above the state or federal level.  Many of these are not the current levels and will be phased in over time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Fjd

[oldtimer]

If one doesn’t have an earned income, they can’t vote.

 

Or own property?  Or why not bump it up to only those who own a business?  So much for a representative government.  Even Julius Caesar saw the sense of giving the head count the vote.  Wasn't it to curb somewhat the power of the elite?  The founders of our current government thought the same.  Those who were against it were royalists, or tories.  Why not go full retro and declare for the queen?  As Aretha Franklin sang: THINK.

[garyrc]

Bottom line:  If you think a person serving you is underpaid, you can tip them.  Be generous!  You don't need to wait for Congress.  Just go ahead and start tipping generously today.  Nobody is stopping you.  Tip your yard-man more.  Tip the garbage collector.  Tip the newspaper carrier.  It's all in your hands.

 

Would you also tip the over-the-counter retail sales clerk?  Most of them need tips, too, although they would probably get in trouble for accepting them.  I once worked full-time in retail sales, for three different interstate companies, even after I had a 4 year college degree, and made just a bit more than the then minimum hourly wage. 

 

When I went to graduate school, I became a TA for slightly more per hour.  Finally, I got a job on the University staff, doing some teaching as well, starting at about 5 times the minimum hourly wage, and for the first time, I got benefits.  The secret ingredient was something called a Union.  I still had only a Master's degree.  Yet some of my friends with Ph.D.s and 20 years or more experience were paid about the same for teaching as my wife was as a technologist with 1 year special training beyond her 4 year college degree.

[Bella]

"According to a recent BofA reported on how robotics will reshape the world, San Francisco start up Momentum Machines are out to fully automate the production of burgers with the aim of replacing a human fast food worker. The machine can shape burgers from ground meat, grill them to order with the specified amount of char, toast buns, add tomatoes, onions, pickles, and finally place it on a conveyor belt.

The robot is shown below. It occupies 24 square feet, and is much smaller and efficient than most assembly-line fast-food operations. It provides "gourmet cooking methods never before used in a fast food restaurant" and will deposit the completed burger into a bag. It does all of this without a trace of attitude."

 

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-10/dear-striking-fast-food-workers-meet-machine-just-put-all-you-out-job

 

 

I like it!  And I don't have to worry about any nefarious activity against my burger while it was being made.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Bella