Deang Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 USNET's networks were built by me, it's called the "SuperX". I used AudioCap PPT Theta film and foils in the tweeter section, a high quality metalized ESA series ClarityCap at the primary, and a Mills non-inductive resistor. Newer units were getting the wax potted autoformer and coils. The air core for the low pass was by request. I also adjusted the high pass value for the speaker it was being used in. IOWs, it could be adopted for use in the Cornwall, Bob's CornScalas, etc. All of my networks retain the 2.5mH low pass value that Paul Klipsch assigned to the K-33 woofer. Since Al has put a permanent stain on this design by falsely accusing me of stealing it, I've decided to stop building it. I'm really okay with this, since I had seriously been considering dropping it anyways. It's a nice sounding build, but I prefer the sound I get using the Jensen PIOs and the Jupiters. With the stock parts, most prefer a 3dB drop in midrange output. This has nothing to do with the room, it's caused by the low loss parts. The original builds were somewhat lossy, and when you strip all of the resistance out of the filter, it sounds too hot. People using different horns, drivers, and tweeters have a legitimate reason to use these type networks. but the right way to do it is to find the correct level of attenuation for each driver, and then scale the network design accordingly. This also allows the use of higher quality/better sounding capacitors, since you aren't forced into using a 50-60uF capacitor at the primary position. Tweeters are a little more problematic since the ears are very sensitive to what's going on up there, and even though he's being a butthead, I'm still a big fan of his tweeter attenuator. I am however, not a fan of the other unit. The CornScala-wall network presents a good value. You can't get "good value" by working with expensive parts. I have built this unit exactly as sold, and though not something I would use, I thought the sound was passable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) Meaning it is a good budget upgrade for the price ? Thanks Dean I, and (I am sure) most understand there are improvements that can be made at a cost, similar to anything else in audio it all depends on budget. I understood you and Al had a falling out and this is not an attempt to open that wound. It was and simply is a discussion about this being a good low budget way to improve on a worn out stock crossover on a Cornwall / Scala build. I would hope we can keep it civil, Al wont be here. I feel like you stated your case about the falling out, I really appreciate your response as I do also respect your work and knowledge on the subject Edited November 12, 2015 by joessportster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Alk as an upgrade path listed on his site... AA to super AA-X for $95. It's a cap replacement and rework to become something very close to a universal? Lol, didn't even see this. So much I could say, but since I was dropping it anyway, it doesn't matter. Knowing how he really feels about these units, I do hope he gets plenty of opportunities to build them. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Joe, like I've always said, I build what I like, and what I don't like -- I don't build. I may be a "vendor", but I think like a customer. I enjoy building something that I believe delivers better sound, and I've said this many times: I have no desire to be a quantity builder, with all of my spare time spent locked away in the workroom. That's not called "fun", that's called "prison". Last week I was pretty upset about this mess, but I'm fine now. I was already in the process of changing the way I do things, and let's get real here, finding the cheapest way to build something has never been my thing. A paper in oil or wax paper capacitor build may cost twice as much or more, but I like doing the builds because I know they're going to sound great, and I'm proud to have my name associated with them. Lesser expensive builds are coming, but I'm still thinking them through. John Warren also tossed me an interesting build, and I have to decide what to do with it. It's not always easy being civil, but I do try, and at this point, I can easily disassociate myself from the nonsense to give forum members accurate assessments of designs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Alk as an upgrade path listed on his site... AA to super AA-X for $95. Its a Cap replacement and rework to become something very close to a universal? The LSIs I had came with new AL3 so this wouldn't work. I upgraded my Al3s to ES500s. After having a pair of ES networks I don't seem to enjoy the lower order stuff... Less my Audio Nirvana 8" which has no crossover :-). If anyone has done this upgrade to the super AA-X from a standard AA, I would like to hear your impressions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbane Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 ^^^^ Per above, I'm also interested in this information.^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted November 13, 2015 Author Share Posted November 13, 2015 Nice Dean, Thanks Inquiring EARS want to know.......................anyone using these please fess up and share your impressions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 (edited) Nice Dean, Thanks Inquiring EARS want to know.......................anyone using these please fess up and share your impressions I just looked on ALK's site. - Says Super AA upgrade coming soon. Just got word, ALK has a set of AA's being shipped to him for upgrade. Dave Edited November 19, 2015 by Fastlane Audio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny's Jill Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Hi Dave. Will these work for my Lescallas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Hey Jill, glad to see you decided to get on the forums. Your Lascala's already have ALK Universal crossovers. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Full Range Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) USNET's networks were built by me, it's called the "SuperX". I used AudioCap PPT Theta film and foils in the tweeter section, a high quality metalized ESA series ClarityCap at the primary, and a Mills non-inductive resistor. Newer units were getting the wax potted autoformer and coils. The air core for the low pass was by request. I also adjusted the high pass value for the speaker it was being used in. IOWs, it could be adopted for use in the Cornwall, Bob's CornScalas, etc. All of my networks retain the 2.5mH low pass value that Paul Klipsch assigned to the K-33 woofer. Since Al has put a permanent stain on this design by falsely accusing me of stealing it, I've decided to stop building it. I'm really okay with this, since I had seriously been considering dropping it anyways. It's a nice sounding build, but I prefer the sound I get using the Jensen PIOs and the Jupiters. With the stock parts, most prefer a 3dB drop in midrange output. This has nothing to do with the room, it's caused by the low loss parts. The original builds were somewhat lossy, and when you strip all of the resistance out of the filter, it sounds too hot. People using different horns, drivers, and tweeters have a legitimate reason to use these type networks. but the right way to do it is to find the correct level of attenuation for each driver, and then scale the network design accordingly. This also allows the use of higher quality/better sounding capacitors, since you aren't forced into using a 50-60uF capacitor at the primary position. Tweeters are a little more problematic since the ears are very sensitive to what's going on up there, and even though he's being a butthead, I'm still a big fan of his tweeter attenuator. I am however, not a fan of the other unit. The CornScala-wall network presents a good value. You can't get "good value" by working with expensive parts. I have built this unit exactly as sold, and though not something I would use, I thought the sound was passable. That's exactly what I did in my XOver build I use 3 different drivers from 3 different makers and all at varying sensitivity ratings It was essential to have attenuation to alter the db in each section to form a nice marriage and tune to the room I also tweaked some aspects of the design and used better quality parts than ALKs standard offerings as I am a convert by experience that better capasitors and resistors really do make a difference @Deang I just went to the ALK site ( first time in almost a year ) to see for myself and noticed that he has accused you ( not by name ) of steeling his design And just above that rant " Lo and behold " he has also taken exception to my XOver build He has not read the thread as to my reasons to build it in that way, and used an incomplete early stage unflattering photo saying that he hates the look and has given me a serve about the layout design and my choice of components ? On the build thread I respected his wishes not to post the schematic on the XOver due in part of his previous objections of people steeling his designs All I will say to this rant is WTF and ALK, get a life man. Understand that there have been XOver designers before you and there will be designers after you. All build on the previous designers ideas just like you did I will now be a gentleman and bite my tongue and take the high ground. Edited November 22, 2015 by Full Range 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) An autoformer is the wrong tool for dealing with room issues. Rooms can cause swings of up to 10dB or more in the frequency response. Again, many prefer a little shaved off of the midrange output, due to the near lossless performance of today's parts. I've proved this to myself and others so many times over the years that it is without dispute. The proof is found in build comparisons -- all you need to do is compare any other form of build to a paper in oil or wax paper capacitor build. All of my builds use the original Klipsch settings and the speakers sound perfectly balanced. After seeing what Al has done with the SuperX, I've decided to keep offering it in its original form. Austin has also convinced me to offer it in a more affordable version, which means dropping the film and foils out of the tweeter circuit. I guess I can just make the PPT Thetas an upgrade option. I also won't be using Litz coils because I don't like the way they're made. They do measure a little better in the area that counts, but the loss reduction really becomes a non-factor as soon as the midrange and tweeter output is reduced. In other words, you gain a little and then lose it when you attenuate (perceptually) -- it's much to do about nothing. Coils should have no air between their windings and the windings need to be rigid. I like the Jantzen air cores as well as the wax impregnated parts I buy from UT. @Fullrange; I was the person that encouraged Al to drop the kits. I was seeing some terrible stuff and asked Al if he wanted his name associated with it. However, I don't remember suggesting or talking him into removing his DIY section. He had just given me the Universal to build, and I didn't want to deal with the headache and added stress of dealing with the DIY segment of the community. When I saw his comments on your build, I kind of chuckled. It's unorthodox, but it's a nice clean build, and you didn't send me a hundred emails with questions. I'm disappointed by the vindictiveness. I don't get the narrow minded version of events either. I have no control over what he says or does with his website, and continually defending myself is going to start taking on a "I think thou dost protest too much" quality. This is apparently the price I pay for counting John Warren as a friend. At any rate, I didn't "steal" anything. My mistake was allowing Al to take full credit for something that originated in my mind. It was a shared experience, but I guess there is no room for me. Edited November 23, 2015 by Deang 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 This thread is turning into a pissing match just like John Warrens thread. Really sad. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) Dave, with respect; he can't use his public web site to insult people and make accusations without some backlash. The only "pissing contest" is between me and Crites as to which is actually building "original sounding" crossovers. :-) All of the Klipsch networks for Heritage sound pretty different from one another. Comparing the Type AA with the Atlas version of the K-55 to something like the AK-3/AL-3 with the EV version of the K-55 -- is a real eye opener. Throw a Universal or SuperX into the mix, and it gets even weirder. ALK Gentle Slopes and ESNs? Might as well toss in the new network John Warren would like for me to build. I once thought about building and offering the Klipsch AK-4, but didn't think I could build a version to my satisfaction that people would be willing to pay for. I'm both customer and builder, and the DIY component of this has taught me a lot. The most obvious is that I have clear preferences, no surprise there. So how did I come about these preferences? I guess everyone knows that both Bob and myself prefer the Type A. Everyone did know that, right? How can that be? We build completely different and have completely different listening rooms too! Because there were so many different networks and ways to build them, I had built a matrix in an excel spreadsheet, with notes - that I would use when I spoke to customers. There was a time when I wouldn't think twice about sending someone to Bob or Al if I thought something they sold would work out better than anything I could offer. It's not easy being both friend and competitor. Craig thought I was an idiot for maintaining these personal relationships, and felt I should disassociate myself from them. In spite of the current friction, I don't regret any of it. Bob and me have our differences, but we know each other very well, and spend a fair amount of time praying for each other and our families. DJK is not a competitor, but Dennis is a kindred spirit - understanding and providing explanations for why I (and others) hear the things we do. Dennis, like John - is also very strong technically. Something that IS sad is that because of the way this community deals with the subjective side of things, Dennis more times than not takes a lot of great information to the other forums he frequents. I actually have to follow him around to find the gems he's tossing around. Then there is John, who speaks in a language I don't -- mathematics. It's a wall, but he builds doors for me. He's a very cool dude. I'm in the process of re-establishing my relationship with Dave Harris. Dave is in the middle, and I feel so bad for him. All he wants is peace and to have things the way they used to be. I hear you Dave, and if I could wind back the clock, I would. If I thought Al would take a call from me without shouting me down, I'd probably risk it. These started out as professional relationships because I had so much to learn, but then they became personal as well. Because of the business aspect, the personal relationships carry with them a certain amount of risk, but most of us don't care. We actually trust each other, and make every effort not to trample on each other. These personal relationships are important to me -- this hobby would be flat out boring without them. So now we have a bit of drama. I guess it was inevitable. So, relationships and drama aside, what everyone really wants to know is who sells the best sounding networks. I mean c'mon, there must be almost fifty different versions of these things, right? So, who's interested in talking about that? Edited November 23, 2015 by Deang 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twk123 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I read it as well and was taken back by the personal attacks and vindictiveness of his website that I would consider slander. Although I have to say it was a first to have someone accuse their competition of having Alzheimer's, being a 'bible thumper' AND a Communist all in one short piece of writing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Nice Dean, Thanks Inquiring EARS want to know.......................anyone using these please fess up and share your impressions I just looked on ALK's site. - Says Super AA upgrade coming soon. Just got word, ALK has a set of AA's being shipped to him for upgrade. Dave This thread is turning into a pissing match just like John Warrens thread. Really sad. Hmm. Were you here weeks ago when he was berating the other X over guys on the forum? Let alone, accusing us of all being blind idiots with his childish, 3 year old rhetoric finally telling the entire forum that he doesn't need anyone here for his business. The guy was a total azz Put your pom poms down and think about your own character here. He's not welcome here (once again) and If you are going to keep chumming his business there will be plenty here to add a negative to that as a warning to "unknowns" about doing business with the jerk. Was that a little rushed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Put your pom poms down and think about your own character here. He's not welcome here (once again) and If you are going to keep chumming his business there will be plenty here to add a negative to that as a warning to "unknowns" about doing business with the jerk. Wow! is that a threat to Dave and others for exercising his free speech? What rank do you hold in the Thought Police? Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Was that a little rushed? Maybe. Al has no filter and doesn't know how to censor himself. He's firmly entrenched in his own way of doing things and along with that comes this idea that he has qualifications that others don't. In short, he's frustrated and can't figure out why the rest of us "don't get it". I'm not excusing the behavior, it was terrible. Al may have a bad temper, but I don't think he should be permenently demonized because of that thread -- I just wish he would have come into the thread and taken a head on approach with John. I think we all wish that. Dave is in an awkward position; when Bill Martinelli decided to stop building the Trachorn for Al, it left one hell of a vacuum. It was a great sounding horn, and I routinely recommended it to customers. It was Dave who decided to step up and run with it, and if it wasn't for Dave, we wouldn't have the horn. I have a pair downstairs ready for installation, and I can say he's the only one building them right. Al designed the horn at the prompting of Max Potter, and Dave deciding to build them extends and includes him in an important part of history. Let's not forget that It was Al, not Klipsch -- that gave us a tractrix horn for Heritage. So now Dave builds these for Al, and it's a symbiotic relationship -- where each promotes the work of the other. I don't think Dave should be criticized for promoting Al's products, which he actually happens to like and use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I read it as well and was taken back by the personal attacks and vindictiveness of his website that I would consider slander. Although I have to say it was a first to have someone accuse their competition of having Alzheimer's, being a 'bible thumper' AND a Communist all in one short piece of writing... You must be referring to something in one the posts, because I don't see anything like that on his website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) Put your pom poms down and think about your own character here. He's not welcome here (once again) and If you are going to keep chumming his business there will be plenty here to add a negative to that as a warning to "unknowns" about doing business with the jerk. Wow! is that a threat to Dave and others for exercising his free speech? What rank do you hold in the Thought Police? Lee Let it go Lee. Get yourself a nice steak dinner, enjoy some tunes and forget about the negativity. Dave Edited November 23, 2015 by Fastlane Audio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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