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Preamp/Power Conditioner Question


mrgrinch98

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I am currently running the following 7.1 setup:

 

Yamaha RX-V2600

Fronts:  Klipsch RF-7

Sides and Rears: Klipsch RF-5

Center:  Klipsch RC-7

Subwoofer:  Klipsch KSW-15 (I would maybe like to upgrade or add another sub to this setup, and would appreciate some thoughts on this as well)

 

A couple of questions....first, I have an opprotunity to add a Parasound HCA-1200 II preamp for a very cheap price.  Will I even notice a difference or should I pass?

 

Also, I can inexpensively add a Monster Power HTPS 7000 power conditoner.  I am moving soon, and the purchase is more designed for the new house.  I would like to try it out now, but I live in an older house without a grounded outlet near the home theater.  Would the power conditioner still be beneficial without a grounded outlet?  Also, will having this unit help with the overall sound of the speaker setup?

 

Finally, one last question.  These are all going to be heavy units.  Do you have any recommendations for entertainment center setups that can handle several units that are in the fifty pound range? 

Edited by mrgrinch98
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Mrgrinch98,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

 

 

Yamaha RX-V2600 Fronts:  Klipsch RF-7 Sides and Rears: Klipsch RF-5 Center:  Klipsch RC-7 Subwoofer:  Klipsch KSW-15 (I would maybe like to upgrade or add another sub to this setup, and would appreciate some thoughts on this as well)

 

Nice setup but yes the KSW-15 is adequate for HT but for music not the best.

 

 

 

I have an opprotunity to add a Parasound HCA-1200 II preamp for a very cheap price.  Will I even notice a difference or should I pass?

 

For one, the HCA-1200 II is a 205w/ch@8ohms, 315w/ch@4ohms John Curl designed amplifier, not a preamp.  And yes, there is a "possibility" you will notice a difference. 

 

 

 

Finally, one last question.  These are all going to be heavy units.  Do you have any recommendations for entertainment center setups that can handle several units that are in the fifty pound range? 

 

I have one of these and you can see the weight capacities.

 

 Gecko TV Stand with AV Shelves for up 53" Plasma, LCD & DLP TVs

  GKR-596BCC
596m.jpg 

Enlarge

Sale: $399 /Free Shipping

Quantity: 

Features:

  • Heavy duty steel construction;
  • Accommodates most of the plasma, LCD & DLP up to 50" TVs;
  • Bevel cut front edge, curved front profile;
  • Cable management system;
  • Tempered safety glass for all shelves;
  • The open shelving provides great ventilation to keep your A/V components cool.
  • RTA design, easy to assemble;
  • Available in black with cherry wood frame & clear glass.

Dimensions:
Overall: 50.6" W x 23.4" D x 21.5" H

Top Shelf: 50.6" W x 23.4" D
Weight Capacity: 220 lbs

First Shelf: 42.8" W x 18.9" D
Weight Capacity: 88 lbs

Bottom Shelf: 42.8" W x 18.9" D
Weight Capacity: 220 lbs

Recommended TV Size:
37"- 53" Flat Panel TVs or 50" DLP TVs.

 

 

Bill

Edited by willland
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different people have different opinions on power conditioners. Worst case, it's a power surge protector. I have one on each one of my set ups. I don't know if there is a difference in SQ, but in "theory" it's supposed to clean up the power going into your system. But I can say it did help a few times when we had big power surges. Not one thing of mine was damaged.

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Yes get a power conditioner /surge protector.....but Monster...there are better ones out there...Unless you are getting one for under $300.00. The Monster brand is a lot of Hype

 

Try looking at Panamax/Furman/APC... I am not saying Monster will not do the job . I just think they are overpriced for what you really get.

 

G.E.M.

Edited by oldred
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I understand the Monster hype wagon, and normally I avoid their products.  I can pick up this power conditioner for $150, so I am thinking it might be a wise investment.

 

I like that TV stand, but I have a Pioneer 60 inch plasma attached to my home theater setup right now.  Besides looking for something that can hold three pieces almost 50 pounds each underneath, it also would be nice to accomadate about 6-7 gaming systems. 

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For most people with decent electricity, a power conditioner won't make a big difference.  It can be used to cut on multiple devices and act as a surge protector.  If things get that much better with a power conditioner, don't spend the money on audio gear and call an electrician, lol. 

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That is why I wanted to try it out in my home, but was wondering how it would work with an ungrounded outlet.

What does ground have to do with noise?  Or more specifically, what are you trying to solve?

 

What happens inside electronics.  'Cleanest' or 'dirtiest' incoming power is filtered and converted to DC voltages.  Then that is converted to well over 300 volt radio frequency spikes.  Now incoming power is far 'dirtier' than anyone on AC mains.  Then superior filters, regulators, and galvanic isolation cleans that much 'dirtier' power.  So what does that power conditioner do?  No matter how 'clean' or 'dirty', your electronics already 'cleans' and regulates what is intentionally made many times 'dirtier'. 

 

If it is a wise investment, then a specification number defines that value.  

 

Long before seeking a cure, first define the disease.  What specifically are you trying to cure?  If that is not defined, then snake oil salesmen will sell you anything.  Monster has a long history of selling maybe $20 equipment for $180 - because so many feel they need it.

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Get a reliable surge suppressor, and you're done. Electrical storm surges can absolutely take out your gear. Isobar Tripp Lite will do the job.

Post numbers for an Isobar.  It is reliable because hearsay says so.  How many joules does it absorb?  Surges that are hundreds of joules are harmlessly absorbed by protection already inside appliances.  Surges that do damage are hundreds of thousands of joules.  Where are the always required numbers for an Isobar?  Not provided by consumers manipulated by speculation and hearsay.  Even an Isobar must be be protected by something completely different that actually does protect from surges such as lightning.

 

OP asked for a power conditioner.  This would be for other anomalies including RFI, frequency variation, harmonics, EM/EMI, floating ground, noise, sags, bad power factor, noise, etc.  Where are Isobar spec numbers for those anomalies?  Also not provided for one reason.  No such spec numbers exist.  Isobar also does near zero or nothing for that.  Why would anyone recommend an Isobar that does not do what the OP asked for and does not protect from typically destructive surges? Because so many only know what they are told; never demand reasons why to believe it - with numbers.  Advertising works.

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Also, I can inexpensively add a Monster Power HTPS 7000 power conditoner.  I am moving soon, and the purchase is more designed for the new house.  I would like to try it out now, but I live in an older house without a grounded outlet near the home theater.  Would the power conditioner still be beneficial without a grounded outlet?

Most likely, no, especially in regards to the surge part. The problem with MOV based surge protectors, which is pretty much anything that says the word "joules" on it (like this one), is that they like to reroute the surge to the ground. Which, can potentially be harmful in itself, but if there's no ground, then there's nowhere for it to go. You then have an expensive extension cord.

If you notice on series mode surges such as SurgeX, ZeroSurge, and Brick Wall, they don't rely on the ground, they have internal capacitors that get charged by the surge then slowly let it trickle back out on the neutral wire. This is why they say "no ground contamination".

Worst case, it's a power surge protector.

Except when it isn't. :)

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Surges that are hundreds of joules are harmlessly absorbed by protection already inside appliances.  Surges that do damage are hundreds of thousands of joules.

Since you mentioned lightning, a worst case lightning strike coming into your house is 6,000 volts, 3,000 amps due to arcing at the breaker box and whatnot. That's 18,000,000 watts. Lightning strikes last a max of 50 microseconds. Assuming that's all that you're seeing inside your house... it's not a easy direct conversion but based on this calculator:

http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/Joule_to_Watt_Calculator.htm

900 joules lasting for 50 microseconds is the same amount of watts.

Most likely the bigger problem is MOV degregation as well as power company issues such as a transformer shorting out and staying that way for a long time. Most surges actually originate from inside your own house. Air conditioner kicks off? Surge. Fridge? Surge. Every day you wear out your MOV's yourself, and don't forget regular surges from the power company.

In other words, the joules aren't what it can absorb over and over, that's a lifetime rating. So, a 1,000 joule surge could probably aborb one 900 joule hit with no problem. Or, it could absorb ten 100 joule hits, which is only the amount of power to turn on a light bulb for one second, then just catch on fire and burn your house down when that 900 joule lightning strike or transformer short comes. Don't laugh, it happens, more than you'd expect.

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters
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Since you mentioned lightning, a worst case lightning strike coming into your house is 6,000 volts, 3,000 amps due to arcing at the breaker box and whatnot. That's 18,000,000 watts. Lightning strikes last a max of 50 microseconds.: ...

900 joules lasting for 50 microseconds is the same amount of watts.

 

 

900 joules was one's ballpark number to sell expensive (and heavy) series mode filters that do not protect from typically destructive surges.  To absorb 900 joules, a protector must be at least 2700 joules - based upon how these are designed.

 

Even an IEEE guide shows a plug-in protector earthing a surge 8000 volts destructively through some nearby TV - well above that ballpark 6000 volts.

 

A separate 900 joules would be incoming to each household appliance.  Required is a protector on each clock radio, on dimmer switches, on every GFCI, on an air conditioner, furnace, washing machine,  every phone or answering machine, dishwasher, stove, every TV, microwave, refrigerator, sump pump, alarm system, doorbell, LED bulb, and especially on every smoke detector.  Furthermore, carefully educate each kid how to connect his Xbox to the TV to not compromise protection.  Since an Xbox or other game must only connect to a same protector also used by the TV - not to any other wall receptacle.  All that made unnecessary by one 'whole house' solution.

 

Plug-in protectors are pathetic for many reasons - including no earth ground to divert 3000+ amps.  Which are often more than 3000 amps and then followed by something that is even more powerful: a 'follow through' current.  Critical is that low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth.  All these compromises exist if one does not properly earth a 'whole house' protector and does not inspect his 'primary' protection layer.

 

Protection means a surge is nowhere inside a building.  Then protection already inside each appliances is not overwhelmed.  Once inside, a surge will hunt for earth destructively via appliances. Once inside, that is inevitable.  No way around that if using plug-in protectors - that can even compromise protection in adjacent appliances.  Protection means a destructive transient is not inside.

 

Any facility that makes surges irrelevant (including direct lightning strikes) earths that surge BEFORE it enters a building.  That means hundreds of thousands of joules.  That means maybe 20,000 amps connects to earth without being anywhere inside a building.  20,000 amps that often only select a few appliances end up conducting well above a 3000 amp ballpark number.

 

And finally, what happens when a less than 2700 joule protector fails?  Fires happened in protectors that are behind furniture, on a rug, or under a desk. Not only does it do ineffective protection (without earthing provided by a 'whole house' solution).  It also puts a potential fire risk in a worst location.

 

Plug-in protectors are intended for use in conjunction with a 'whole house' protector.  Many facilities that cannot have damage only earth that 'whole house' solution to have sufficient protection. That is at least 50,000 amps so that no energy need dissipate destructively inside equipment.  Some even ban plug-in protectors since fire is another unacceptable risk.  So many reasons why energy best dissipates harmlessly outside a building.  Using a solution that costs tens or 100 times less money.

 

BTW, any surge from any household appliance either destroys appliances every hour or daily.  Or is only noise. Is made completely irrelevant by what is already inside everything  - even inside every dimmer switch, LED bulb, and GFCI.  Appliance generated surges are myths invented to promote plug-in protectors - to create fear and increase sales.  No one ever provides numbers for these myths.  They don't have to.  Where are all those hourly destroyed appliances? That myth targets gullible consumers.

 

Furthermore, if appliances generate surges, then one 'whole house' protector also eliminates them.  If appliances generate surges, then the protector must be on what generates the surge - not its many victims.  More facts they forget to mention in that myth.

 

All that irrelevant for an OP who asked for a power conditioner - not a surge protector.  Those are two completely different devices for completely different anomalies.

Edited by westom
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900 joules was one's ballpark number to sell expensive (and heavy) series mode filters

I've never seen any series mode literature that mentioned 900 joules. I came up with that number myself just showing how far off the hundreds of thousands of joules you mentioned is if we're going to talk about lightning. I can't even find anything that mentions this on Google. If they're using this as a sales pitch then they're doing a bad job of it.

 

that do not protect from typically destructive surges.

Sorry but that's BS. :) The companies with this technology have never had a failure, meaning a customer got zapped and it was the surge protectors fault. Not one. That's since 1988. ZeroSurge prides themselves on it greatly but when asked, SurgeX will say the same thing, and BrickWall is basically a ZeroSurge unit so count them in as well. Nobody who uses MOV's can say this to this extent.

 

Even an IEEE guide shows a plug-in protector earthing a surge 8000 volts destructively through some nearby TV - well above that ballpark 6000 volts.

Original source? When was it written? If you want to look at what the IEEE says then look at IEEE C62.41-1991 which mentions 6,000 volts as being the upper limit due to arcing like I said earlier.

 

A separate 900 joules would be incoming to each household appliance.  Required is a protector on each clock radio, on dimmer switches, on every GFCI, on an air conditioner, furnace, washing machine,  every phone or answering machine, dishwasher, stove, every TV, microwave, refrigerator, sump pump, alarm system, doorbell, LED bulb, and especially on every smoke detector.  Furthermore, carefully educate each kid how to connect his Xbox to the TV to not compromise protection.  Since an Xbox or other game must only connect to a same protector also used by the TV - not to any other wall receptacle.  All that made unnecessary by one 'whole house' solution.

http://www.cepro.com/article/the_myth_of_whole_house_surge_protection/

I tried to have one installed but neither the local electrical company nor multiple electricians will install them around here anymore, said they don't do any good. Not sure what the deal is there. MOV based surges choke down the current as well so I am curious as to what will happen with a whole-house MOV solution.

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters
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