SWL Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Speakers (KLF-30's) are fifteen years old and quite frankly, I'm preferring them with solid state instead of tubes lately. Don't get me wrong, they sound great with tubes but just a little too 'relaxed' compared to the qualities that solid state throws out there. I'm wondering if this is due to the age of the speakers and they are ready for a x-over refresh...but at the same time it seems that I'm always reading comments from people who refresh/upgrade their x-overs and then complain that they sound harsh/bright. It seems that a x-over refresh (a lot of times) puts the Klipsch speaker back to square one like when it was new......and bright....and forward....and harsh sounding. Then a certain amount of time later, the listener reports that it mellowed out a bit. Did it mellow out or did the listener just get used to the 'new' sound? Maybe he found a more compatible amp/preamp? Some guys are throwing deadening material all over the cabinet/horns then say it's better. Is it really....or is it just another DIY placebo effect? These are some reasons I'm hesitating on new x-overs. I feel I may be missing out on some detail but I sure as hell don't want to go back to another harsh, bright, forward sounding speaker. Opinions and some insight on this much appreciated. Just had most of my vintage solid state restored and I'm very impressed. Speakers are next in line. Thanks, -Scott 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Can't go wrong updating you crossover capacitors, your ears just get used to the sound as they age so you think it sounds OK. Are your crossovers bad ? Maybe, probably a little out of specification after 15 years but its only a guess. First thing i notice when installing new capacitors is the improvement in imaging that was missing with the old parts. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzog Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I haven't yet upgraded my Quartet crossovers, and those are ~25 years old. I'm sure they would sound a bit better with an upgrade, but I haven't had the time/money just yet. I can say that I have a set of Heresy III - so they have fresh crossovers/drivers. I do not find the Heresy III harsh at all. Brighter than the quartets? Sure, but not in a bad way - all the instruments are just there. I have heard the La Scala II, so again all new components, and those were not harsh at all - In fact, my ~37 year old completely stock Altec 19 are brighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Can't go wrong updating you crossover capacitors, your ears just get used to the sound as they age so you think it sounds OK. First thing i notice when installing new capacitors is the improvement in imaging that was missing with the old parts. Good point. The common denominator here is that people always criticize Klipsch as sounding bright, harsh and forward sounding....especially when they're new.... myself included. I suppose my concern is that I don't want to be limited to using tubes to remedy this. My imaging and soundstage is awesome at this point. Edited November 25, 2015 by SWL 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) My brother owns my old pair of 30's and he's quite happy with them. I brought him over a pair of Chorus 1's to trade awhile back thinking they would be a nice "upgrade" for him. Well, the Chorus sounded extremely bright in comparison, unbearably bright in fact. In their defense his room is all wood panel ceiling and hardwood floors. What surprised me was how the 30's weren't bright sounding at all. I concluded that his crossovers were probably in need of repair and he just said that if they were broken, they were broken just right. I really couldn't disagree as they sound pretty good. I ended up just taking the Chorus back home with me. Edited November 25, 2015 by jjptkd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juniper Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I haven't yet upgraded my Quartet crossovers, and those are ~25 years old. I'm sure they would sound a bit better with an upgrade, but I haven't had the time/money just yet. I can say that I have a set of Heresy III - so they have fresh crossovers/drivers. I do not find the Heresy III harsh at all. Brighter than the quartets? Sure, but not in a bad way - all the instruments are just there. I have heard the La Scala II, so again all new components, and those were not harsh at all - In fact, my ~37 year old completely stock Altec 19 are brighter. Have you done the "ground lug mod" on your M19's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzog Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 I haven't yet upgraded my Quartet crossovers, and those are ~25 years old. I'm sure they would sound a bit better with an upgrade, but I haven't had the time/money just yet. I can say that I have a set of Heresy III - so they have fresh crossovers/drivers. I do not find the Heresy III harsh at all. Brighter than the quartets? Sure, but not in a bad way - all the instruments are just there. I have heard the La Scala II, so again all new components, and those were not harsh at all - In fact, my ~37 year old completely stock Altec 19 are brighter.Have you done the "ground lug mod" on your M19's? Nope, completely stock and sound great. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornas Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 I was hesitant to upgrade the crossovers on my Fortes (made in 1986), but when I did, I was blown away by the improvement. The sound became more open, pleasant, cohesive, with less distortion and fatigue. I think the new crossovers made my speakers smoother instead of harsher. I used Bob Crites crossovers btw. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) The original capacitors are Mylars/polyester. The internal resistance or ESR is higher than what is being used to replace them, which are typically polypropylenes. The new capacitors make the loudspeaker sound brighter in comparison to the old Mylars, which actually didn't measure that great to begin with. The polypropylenes are cleaner sounding, and the great majority consider it an acceptable trade off -- a bit of additional brightness to get the cleaner sound. For whatever reason, some interpret this additional brightness as "harshness". I put this down to break-in, which no one here believes in. I try to use capacitors that kind of fall in between, and I like the Dayton Audio brand of capacitors. I also recommend Mills resistors. Good film and foils are even smoother, but I don't recommend doing that unless you have a lot of experience -- the parts are much bigger and they fight you all the way. I also just did some Chorus IIs using the films, and the customer was not happy with the results. Though a first, it's still a valid demonstration of how subjective this stuff is. Because of that experience, I've decided to start sourcing polyester capacitors and giving people a choice. You need to do something. They're getting along in years and need some love. If they were mine, and I knew that I was keeping them for the rest of my life - I would rebuild both networks using paper in oil capacitors and wax impregnated autoformers and coils. I'm not taking on anymore work right now, but we're talking easy builds here - so don't be afraid to tackle the project if you can afford it. Edited November 26, 2015 by Deang 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Full Range Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) Consider it a long overdue service, and update in a sympathetic way if you want to retain the original sound Or update with newer material capasitors it's your choice Edited November 26, 2015 by Full Range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldred Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) I used Bob's crossovers on my Chorus II's and my Forte's.... Probably do the same on my Quartets..... Definitely an improvement. At least do the caps G. E. M. Edited November 27, 2015 by oldred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxJPMxx Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) Why not just add a very small amount of series resistance w/ the polypropylene caps to retain the original roll off characteristics? Personally I replaced what I thought were polyester caps that were in my Heresy II's w/ polypropylene and didn't notice any harshness or brightness, I have very good hearing in the upper octaves fwiw. Edited November 27, 2015 by xxJPMxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 Just ordered new x-overs from Bob.....he has to build them yet so he said I should have them within two weeks if not sooner. I think I'm a little excited.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 I've never had the x-overs out before.....much-less ever really looked at them. Any tips or things I should be aware of when changing out the old and putting the new ones? Bob made it sound like it's pretty self explanatory once I dig in. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 My imaging and soundstage is awesome at this point. you know what they say. if it aint broke dont fix it 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I've never had the x-overs out before.....much-less ever really looked at them. Any tips or things I should be aware of when changing out the old and putting the new ones? Bob made it sound like it's pretty self explanatory once I dig in. Thanks. well guess my post was too late lol. if you are having pre built ones shipped to you, then it is easy. get access to them unscrew the terminals the hold the wires on. take out crossover. put in new one. nothing to be afraid of at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) The original capacitors are Mylars/polyester. The internal resistance or ESR is higher than what is being used to replace them, which are typically polypropylenes. The new capacitors make the loudspeaker sound brighter in comparison to the old Mylars, which actually didn't measure that great to begin with. The polypropylenes are cleaner sounding, and the great majority consider it an acceptable trade off -- a bit of additional brightness to get the cleaner sound. For whatever reason, some interpret this additional brightness as "harshness". I put this down to break-in, which no one here believes in. Do you ever have to measure actual values on capacitors? I had to build a capacitor tester from scratch in engineering school, still have it, have yet to discover a real world use for it. Also are you saying the capacitor itself needs to go through a break-in stage? Edited December 15, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Yes. Capacitors are a little cranky and the sound will settle down between 10 and 20 hours of listening. Some say it's just the ear/brain "getting used to the new sound" - I don't buy into that. I've spoken to several in the industry, including Richard Marsh, and ALL agree that there is a short settling in period. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Deano, You wrote, For whatever reason, some interpret this additional brightness as "harshness". I put this down to break-in, which no one here believes in. Capacitors are a little cranky and the sound will settle down between 10 and 20 hours of listening. Some say it's just the ear/brain "getting used to the new sound" - I don't buy into that. I've spoken to several in the industry, including Richard Marsh, and ALL agree that there is a short settling in period. Don't you find it strange that after the process of "breaking in" components e.g. speaker wire, interconnects, capacitors, etc., that the "sound" is always better, not worse? Surely one capacitor out of the thousands that are broken in using Deano's 10-20 hour window would change the sound for the worse. And what's to keep the component from changing back to its factory-fresh characteristics after a break in period? If I am purchasing capacitors that cost $20-40 each, I want a component that is stable, not one that needs breaking in, curing, aging or whatever the prevailing subjectivist BS jargon is this week. Click on the link to read a classic two-part paper co-authored by Richard Marsh and Walt Jung on picking capacitors. Pretty ground-breaking stuff when it was written for audio magazine in 1980. There is also an article by John Curl on real-time testing of capacitors. http://www.waltjung.org/PDFs/Walt%27s_Blog_2014_Classic_Articles_Page.pdf Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) I've read all of that years ago. Spoke with Marsh on the phone - he gave me the 20 figure. Ever read Robert Stout's stuff. http://marc.info/?l=basslist&m=101836144300969&w=2 Edited December 17, 2015 by Deang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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