Say no to leather chairs!

[etc6849]

Here are some impulse response plots of my old leather high back chair versus a new low back fabric chair (less than 37" tall) I bought at La-Z-Boy (brick and mortor only) for half off. 

 

I initially ordered two, but since they are more than half off ($399 regularly $829), I ordered two more so guests have a place to set.  They are the La-Z-Boy Designer series too (not the cheaper stuff), with thick velvety fabric and nice stiff padding.  By the time I sell my Palliser chairs I bought off craigslist, I won't be out too much more and will have brand new chairs.

 

Although things sounded very very good before, it seems leather is too reflective for a picky person like me (who is also obsessed with plots and measurements).  The high back was also messing things up.  After I rerun Dirac Live Full (Emotiva XMC-1 version), the results should look even better.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2015 by etc6849

[derrickdj1]

Leather chairs are better for tactile sensation.  I actually like both leather and cloth.Those P's look massive next to the screen.

[Chris A]

Ethan Winer talks about the issues with leather chairs and sofas.  He advocates keeping soft afghan wool blankets on the sofas and chairs to absorb their acoustic reflections. High back chairs are also an issue if you're very demanding of your sound.

 

 

I keep a soft fleece stadium blanket folded over the head rest of my chairs (as you might remember) to kill some of those reflections.  When I'm remastering music, I usually sit in a high swivel stool with a low back behind the zero-gravity leather chairs in order to hear the nuances during EQing.  I've found that I make the remasters a little too dull sounding sitting in the leather chairs.  YMMV.

 

Chris

Edited November 28, 2015 by Chris A

[Zim.]

x

[etc6849]

They are pretty big!  I can tell you in my room lots of bass treatments made the bass is very very tactile (e.g. waterfall plots that decay under 300 ms down to ~20Hz at 40dB down from peak).  This combined with a clean ETC/impulse response (which fixes imaging) are the most important measurements I've found, and made the biggest difference for me.  I've had huge gains in sound (imaging and tactile bass) by making these two plots look as clean as possible.

 

Leather chairs are better for tactile sensation.  I actually like both leather and cloth.Those P's look massive next to the screen.

Edited November 28, 2015 by etc6849

[etc6849]

No unfortunately!  The leather chair was placed in the same location as my post shows for the fabric chair.  It did have large leather and faux leather matched arms with cup holders too.  It was this thing:  http://www.theaterseatstore.com/Palliser-Pacifico-manual reconfigured into a one seater.

 

Were you sitting in the chairs when the measurements were taken?

Edited November 28, 2015 by etc6849

[etc6849]

Thanks Chris.  I've seen Ethan's posts and agree with him and you.  I think Ethan and I are on the same page as far as using lots of absorption in a room.  I think at one point he says his room has over 40 panels (maybe it was on his blog I read that)!  I'd love to have his high ceilings too.

 

I see lots of BS posts saying you need reflections, but I really don't know why folks say that.  If my impulse response isn't clean I can't hear the imaging as well and the depth of the image and some detail is gone too.  If folks could hear my dead room, they would be very impressed compared to one with fewer panels and absorption (I think).

 

Ethan Winer talks about the issues with leather chairs and sofas.  He advocates keeping soft afghan wool blankets on the sofas and chairs to absorb their acoustic reflections. High back chairs are also an issue if you're very demanding of your sound.

Edited November 28, 2015 by etc6849

[NBPK402]

 

Thanks Chris.  I've seen Ethan's posts and agree with him and you.  I think Ethan and I are on the same page as far as using lots of absorption in a room.  I think at one point he says his room has over 40 panels (maybe it was on his blog I read that)!  I'd love to have his high ceilings too.

 

I see lots of BS posts saying you need reflections, but I really don't know why folks say that.  If my impulse response isn't clean I can't hear the imaging as well and the depth of the image and some detail is gone too.  If folks could hear my dead room, they would be very impressed compared to one with fewer panels and absorption (I think).

 

Ethan Winer talks about the issues with leather chairs and sofas.  He advocates keeping soft afghan wool blankets on the sofas and chairs to absorb their acoustic reflections. High back chairs are also an issue if you're very demanding of your sound.

 

I agree.... My room is on the verge of being to dead, and I still need to stuff the soffits, and the area under my rack. I also have a little recess where the door is that I am contemplating treating. Do I need to be symmetrical on that too, or can I treat it without treating the other side of the room?

[etc6849]

If possible, I would try to keep things symmetrical.  If you are only talking bass traps though, I wouldn't think it is as critical to be symmetrical.  Soffit bass traps are you my permanent home will have, along with 10 foot high ceilings I hope.

 

I agree.... My room is on the verge of being to dead, and I still need to stuff the soffits, and the area under my rack. I also have a little recess where the door is that I am contemplating treating. Do I need to be symmetrical on that too, or can I treat it without treating the other side of the room?

[NBPK402]

 

If possible, I would try to keep things symmetrical.  If you are only talking bass traps though, I wouldn't think it is as critical to be symmetrical.  Soffit bass traps are you my permanent home will have, along with 10 foot high ceilings I hope.

 

 

 

I agree.... My room is on the verge of being to dead, and I still need to stuff the soffits, and the area under my rack. I also have a little recess where the door is that I am contemplating treating. Do I need to be symmetrical on that too, or can I treat it without treating the other side of the room?

 

What I am trying to eliminate is a little echo by the door. Maybe some 1" acoustic board to attached to the door would work...since directly across from the door is my wall that contains my equipment (this way it would not have to be symmetrical as it goes behind my 1st reflection panels). Does this sound like it would be ok?

[etc6849]

I think I'd need to see your REW file, pictures of the room, etc...  ChrisA has much more experience with REW than me, he's the one who got me interested in it!  I should be interested more in it as I did some of the stuff in matlab and a DSP class to get my EE degree, but I don't have as much freetime as I'd like.  I've only been heavily using REW for about a year or more.

 

One reason I ordered two more chairs is to stop some of the mid-high freq that are hitting my door (chairs will help block mid and highs from hitting parts of my door that aren't covered).  Depends on your layout if rearranging chairs can block some of the door and still allow entry (and keep things symmetrical as we are talking about mid/high freq).

 

I wouldn't recommend foam and I'm not sure which acoustic board, there's some felt-like stuff that looks promising, but I don't know if you're going for asthetics?  The thicker the board the better I'd think.  Nothing wrong with fitting something similar adjacent to the door to stop any reflections off the door too:  http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-monster-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/ (just do the same to the other side of the room).  This is what I did near my door, then used 2" foam on my door (but don't buy foam it looks nice, but isn't as effective as I learned).

 

What I am trying to eliminate is a little echo by the door. Maybe some 1" acoustic board to attached to the door would work...since directly across from the door is my wall that contains my equipment (this way it would not have to be symmetrical as it goes behind my 1st reflection panels). Does this sound like it would be ok?

[etc6849]

I just rerun Dirac with just the two new chairs.  Looks promising; I think with two more fabric chairs I'll have a decent looking waterfall plot.  The impulse and phase look a lot better than they've ever been in my odd shaped room!

 

Audyssey Pro seemed to do a better job for me with my old preamp comparing the old leather chairs.  Must be some limitations to the Emotiva Dirac Live Full aside from the 48kHz sampling. 

 

PS: Yes, the P-39f's are the only thing running in the red plots (reference stereo mode on the XMC-1).  Pretty dang impressive speakers to have that kind of output at 20Hz (with room gain of course)!  This is using a 7 channel amp (ATI AT2007) too!  Looking at the plots, it appears I should try raising my subs up off the floor so the response is closer to the P-39f's, but I can't as I'd block the screen then. 

 

I can see the benefit Dirac Unison would provide here as having my mains and sub work at the same time (over the same low freqs) could produce some awesome waterfall plots.  Can't wait so see if Emotiva provides Unison on the XMC-1.  An old post from the president indicated this was in the works.

Edited November 29, 2015 by etc6849

[NBPK402]

 

I think I'd need to see your REW file, pictures of the room, etc...  ChrisA has much more experience with REW than me, he's the one who got me interested in it!  I should be interested more in it as I did some of the stuff in matlab and a DSP class to get my EE degree, but I don't have as much freetime as I'd like.  I've only been heavily using REW for about a year or more.

 

One reason I ordered two more chairs is to stop some of the mid-high freq that are hitting my door (chairs will help block mid and highs from hitting parts of my door that aren't covered).  Depends on your layout if rearranging chairs can block some of the door and still allow entry (and keep things symmetrical as we are talking about mid/high freq).

 

I wouldn't recommend foam and I'm not sure which acoustic board, there's some felt-like stuff that looks promising, but I don't know if you're going for asthetics?  The thicker the board the better I'd think.  Nothing wrong with fitting something similar adjacent to the door to stop any reflections off the door too:  http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-monster-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/ (just do the same to the other side of the room).  This is what I did near my door, then used 2" foam on my door (but don't buy foam it looks nice, but isn't as effective as I learned).

 

 

 

What I am trying to eliminate is a little echo by the door. Maybe some 1" acoustic board to attached to the door would work...since directly across from the door is my wall that contains my equipment (this way it would not have to be symmetrical as it goes behind my 1st reflection panels). Does this sound like it would be ok?

 

Here is my build thread... https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/150606-our-venture-into-retirement-with-a-dedicated-home-theater/page-14

REW ... I will need to run it again to get a positive result as it has been months since i ran it, and some equipment has been changed.

Room pics... Post #204, 2nd picture shows the door.

[oldred]

I generally just put my Integra DHC 80.3 in Leather Chair Mode before running Audyessy.... Works for me

G.E.M

Edited November 30, 2015 by oldred

[etc6849]

I like thick acoustic insulation you are using.  My plots really improved when I added 9 7.35" panels to my ceiling.  Basically, my entire ceiling is covered with these:  http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-monster-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/

Your room is twice the size or more of mine, so I'm not sure how feasible this is.  Maybe there is some stiffer acoustic insulation you can add over the door.  It looks like you could cover most of the door with a 3-4" layer and still open it all the way, but it'd suck to cover such a pretty looking door.  I'm assuming you custom made it?

 

Are these measurements with or without EQ?  What room eq system are you using?  I'm going to assume these are without EQ.  I think we need to see plots like I'm showing with room eq on and off.  Maybe just FL, FR and sub for now.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/150606-our-venture-into-retirement-with-a-dedicated-home-theater/page-10#entry1800295

 

Also, when you use Audyssey or Dirac or whatever, I would only measure at the money seat.  I usually do 9 points following the Dirac one seat guidelines (did this with Audyssey Pro too).  Then I'll check things with REW using a single measurement.  If you use REW to build your filters, you probably should do the same 9 points and average them then generate the filters.  Getting a plot that's +/-5dB with 1/48 smoothing was hard with Dirac, but I think Audyssey did a better job flattening the freq response if you look at my old posts.  I would never try to do this at all seats (not saying you are, but just in case).  Just pick a money seat and point all mid-ranges at your ears.  Calibrate only for that seat, etc...  This is my philosophy and how I can usually get +/-5dB.  Really though, the waterfall and impulse plots should be the first thing you look at at this point.

 

When you make new measurements, I would post the file in the cloud somewhere and provide a link after starting just a measurement thread here or posting to the REW thread on AVS.  I use the recommendations found here when making plots:  http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1449924-simplified-rew-setup-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-how-interpret-graphs.html

 

I bet your room sounds great as is.  Looks like you and I've both spent months and months studying this stuff to get the best possible plots out of our rooms.

 

 

 

Here is my build thread... https://community.kl...theater/page-14 REW ... I will need to run it again to get a positive result as it has been months since i ran it, and some equipment has been changed. Room pics... Post #204, 2nd picture shows the door.

[garyrc]

I see lots of BS posts saying you need reflections, but I really don't know why folks say that. If my impulse response isn't clean I can't hear the imaging as well and the depth of the image and some detail is gone too. If folks could hear my dead room, they would be very impressed compared to one with fewer panels and absorption (I think).

 

What I've heard is you don't want specular reflections, you don't want very early reflections, but you do want some diffuse reflections.

 

This is just a guess: Recordings that use close micing may sound best if played back in a fairly dead room.  With classical or modern orchestral music and choral works, our 2, 3, 5 ... etc., channels cannot capure the totally surrounding aura of reverberation (although with height channels, we may be getting there), so some diffuse reflections in the room may help the illusion along.

Edited November 30, 2015 by garyrc

[etc6849]

This is very debatable.  The recording itself already has the original acoustics of the room in it.  If all you want is great sound for one seat/sweet spot, no reason at all why you need diffuser panels.  The stereo image I'm getting with my dead room wraps around my head and is very enveloping with only two channels going.  My image has depth and is very very accurate left to right imaging.  In 7.2 my surround imaging is incredible too as the room is 809-90% covered with absorbers.

 

I agree diffusion might be of use if I wanted every seat to have good sound and my room was very big, but I'd much rather only have 1-2 seats with great sound.  Drop me a line if you're ever close to Columbia, SC and hear for yourself.  I hope that doesn't sound arrogant, it's not my intention.  I'm not sure how many folks have been in a room like mine with a 7.2 system setup for just a single seat.

 

 

 

With classical or modern orchestral music and choral works, our 2, 3, 5 ... etc., channels cannot capure the totally surrounding aura of reverberation (although with height channels, we may be getting there), so some diffuse reflections in the room may help the illusion along.

Edited November 30, 2015 by etc6849

[JL Sargent]

This has to fall under the "OCD" classification of listening LOL. I'm just gonna have to live with the dysfunction of my leather recliners.

[NBPK402]

 

I like thick acoustic insulation you are using.  My plots really improved when I added 9 7.35" panels to my ceiling.  Basically, my entire ceiling is covered with these:  http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-monster-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/

Your room is twice the size or more of mine, so I'm not sure how feasible this is.  Maybe there is some stiffer acoustic insulation you can add over the door.  It looks like you could cover most of the door with a 3-4" layer and still open it all the way, but it'd suck to cover such a pretty looking door.  I'm assuming you custom made it?

 

Are these measurements with or without EQ?  What room eq system are you using?  I'm going to assume these are without EQ.  I think we need to see plots like I'm showing with room eq on and off.  Maybe just FL, FR and sub for now.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/150606-our-venture-into-retirement-with-a-dedicated-home-theater/page-10#entry1800295

 

Also, when you use Audyssey or Dirac or whatever, I would only measure at the money seat.  I usually do 9 points following the Dirac one seat guidelines (did this with Audyssey Pro too).  Then I'll check things with REW using a single measurement.  If you use REW to build your filters, you probably should do the same 9 points and average them then generate the filters.  Getting a plot that's +/-5dB with 1/48 smoothing was hard with Dirac, but I think Audyssey did a better job flattening the freq response if you look at my old posts.  I would never try to do this at all seats (not saying you are, but just in case).  Just pick a money seat and point all mid-ranges at your ears.  Calibrate only for that seat, etc...  This is my philosophy and how I can usually get +/-5dB.  Really though, the waterfall and impulse plots should be the first thing you look at at this point.

 

When you make new measurements, I would post the file in the cloud somewhere and provide a link after starting just a measurement thread here or posting to the REW thread on AVS.  I use the recommendations found here when making plots:  http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1449924-simplified-rew-setup-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-how-interpret-graphs.html

 

I bet your room sounds great as is.  Looks like you and I've both spent months and months studying this stuff to get the best possible plots out of our rooms.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is my build thread... https://community.kl...theater/page-14 REW ... I will need to run it again to get a positive result as it has been months since i ran it, and some equipment has been changed. Room pics... Post #204, 2nd picture shows the door.

 

Thanks, I was running Audyssey until my DDRC-88a arrived. Now I am just EQing the Atmos channels with YPAO, and Dirac for the rest. The REW measurements were pre-EQ. Hopefully in the next few weeks i will get my 2nd pair of Atmos channels, and then run the calibration again.

 

The back wall is 9" thick Roxul R60 or R80. All my first reflection panels are 4" thick, and the front wall is 2" thick.

Edited November 30, 2015 by ellisr63

[Chris A]

This has to fall under the "OCD" classification of listening LOL. I'm just gonna have to live with the dysfunction of my leather recliners.

 

I'm currently remastering Christmas music (a King's College Choir CD on Argo Records), and I'm sitting in a bar stool right behind my leather zero-G chairs, with the keyboard and mouse on top of my chair--all because of lessons learned in making the resulting EQed tracks a bit too dull for the rest of the room while I sit in the zero-G chair.  Strange, but true...

 

Chris