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Kelly McAloney

Curious again

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How would I know where reference level is

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SPL meter. Most people blow speakers using underpowered amperage than overpowered. Also, You have to consider source material, if it has a lot of bass, it could damage the 10's in the RF7's.
Will spl measure sound level and fr

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You said towers--What kind of towers?

What is the AVR?

Are we talking stereo only or more than 2 speakers at "Max Volume"?

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Are you going to run the speakers as Large or as small and use a sub with them is the big question? One of the functions of a good sub is to do the heavy lifting, dig deeper/cleaner/ increase avr headroom.

I run them as small with v1800 as backup, I do not plan on trying this

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Have you moved the sw-112 to another area, or have you integrated it into your primary listening area?

Edited by Arrow#422

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Are you going to run the speakers as Large or as small and use a sub with them is the big question? One of the functions of a good sub is to do the heavy lifting, dig deeper/cleaner/ increase avr headroom.

I run them as small with v1800 as backup, I do not plan on trying this

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Have you moved the sw-115 to another area, or did have you integrated it into your primary listening area?
It is a 12, I put in the kids media room to help out there Polk 8", it sounds great with there system, rooms a lot smaller though

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You said towers--What kind of towers?

What is the AVR?

Are we talking stereo only or more than 2 speakers at "Max Volume"?[/quot

Rf82/x4100w just the two

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Edited by Kelly McAloney

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The power rating for the speaker assembly is based on a carefully tailored signal and not continuous. 

 

A tweeter is probably going to blow at 3 or 4 watts continuous and a mid may blow at 20 watts continuous, or less.  The woofers are more robust.

 

The review of the Forte is around someplace.  The reviewer fed it with something like 150 watt bursts but that was 1 millisecond on and 5 millisecond off -- or like that.

 

If you look at the windings of the voice coils for a mid, they are very fine wire and the ones for a tweeter are even more fine.  They will melt with the current needed to put the above mentioned power into them.  It is a wonder they survive the burst tests.

 

The overall power ratings of amps and speakers may give the impression it is like putting size 10 foot into a size 10 shoe.  But that is not correct at all.

 

WMcD

Edited by William F. Gil McDermott
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The power rating for the speaker assembly is based on a carefully tailored signal and not continuous.

A tweeter is probably going to blow at 3 or 4 watts continuous and a mid may blow at 20 watts continuous, or less. The woofers are more robust.

The review of the Forte is around someplace. The reviewer fed it with something like 150 watt bursts but that was 1 millisecond on and 5 millisecond off -- or like that.

If you look at the windings of the voice coils for a mid, they are very fine wire and the ones for a tweeter are even more fine. They will melt with the current needed to put the above mentioned power into them. It is a wonder they survive the burst tests.

The overall power ratings of amps and speakers may give the impression it is like putting size 10 foot into a size 10 shoe. But that is not correct at all.

WMcD

I've always had trouble understanding this part of it but I think I'm coming around but still sways to go, I appreciate your response

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The article appears, in two parts, here.

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/61434-forte-in-stereo-review-1986/?hl=%2Bforte+%2Breview+%2Bhirsch

 

I see that the power into the tweeter is higher than I thought and no duty cycle (how long is the tone on and how long is it off) for the burst is given.  I really wonder about 1500 watts.

 

There is an ISO or DIN for speaker power rating test signals but I don't have it.  The test signal, in theory, mimics music. 

 

For example, a tweeter is reproducing only the top octave or two of music and this is just overtones from a cymbal crash or the like. 

 

The only way to appreciate this is to listen to music through a tweeter (with the crossover filter in place, please).  It sounds scratchy and tinny with basically no recognizable musical tones.  This is no long-term signal being sent into it.

 

 This is why it survives music or burst tone tests of short duration.

 

WMcD

Edited by William F. Gil McDermott
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At full volume, ANY avr will be pumping too much distortion into the speakers.

 

Careful planning is needed to produce a truly reference capable system for the HT.  Everything in the chain has to be carefully picked out and paired with the other gear.  Also the desire and expense to achieve a reference capable system is not for most people.

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If by full volume means you slowly turning up the volume knob, well be careful, typically assuming a dial, its after 12 o'clock things get serious. 

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How would I know where reference level is

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Reference level can be tied meaningfully to a specific main volume control setting when running movies on Blu-ray only in a calibrated sound system and room.  It is not associated with a given MVC setting when playing music, because the music industry has failed to adopt standards that will allow you to reliably achieve reference level at a certain specific main volume control setting in your room with your speakers.  You could measure your peaks with a SPL meter, but many SPL meters have problems.  Those with a needle will underestimate the level of brief beaks, because of needle balistics (incidentally, SPL meters like the Radio Shack are lousy at measuring frequency response, and the various correction sheets on the Internet contradict each other).  For music, set your SPL levels for each piece of music by ear, conservatively.

 

With most, but not all sound systems, if you have Audyssey, it will calibrate your system so that reference level -- with movies only --  from your listening position, in your room, will be reached with the main volume control at 0 dB.  It is important to use all 8 microphone positions when Audyssey calibrating.  That reference level will have maximum brief leading edge peaks of 105 dB through your main speakers, and 115 dB brief leading edge peaks through your subwoofer. 

 

If you have very efficient speakers (like Klipsch RF 7s, La Scalas, Belle Klipsch, Klipschorns, etc.) you have to do some fancy foot work to get a known main volume control position that is equal to reference level in your room.  Audyssey wil lock your volume control at 0 while calibrating, then try to turn your very efficient speakers down when setting the internal trims, but will not be able to turn them down enough.  There are various ways to deal with this, some of which are discussed by Audyssey in their materials.  One way is to use attenuators while calibrating, to do the equivalent of making your speakers temporarily less efficient, then take the attenuators off after calibration.  Reference level will now be below 0, by a number of dBs equal to the value of the attenuators.  For instance, with my Klipschorn/Belle system, reference level = -12 dB.  Unfortunately, this method only works if you have a processor loop, or if you have separate power amplifier(s), so the attenuators can be temporarily inserted between the preamp/processor and the power amp.  There are a couple of other ways to do it.  One was explained by Chris K (Audyssey CTO) on Ask Audyssey, and another one was used by another Klipsch forum member, whose name I forget.

Edited by garyrc
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How would I know where reference level is

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Reference level can be tied meaningfully to a specific main volume control setting when running movies on Blu-ray only in a calibrated sound system and room.  It is not associated with a given MVC setting when playing music, because the music industry has failed to adopt standards that will allow you to reliably achieve reference level at a certain specific main volume control setting in your room with your speakers.  You could measure your peaks with a SPL meter, but many SPL meters have problems.  Those with a needle will underestimate the level of brief beaks, because of needle balistics (incidentally, SPL meters like the Radio Shack are lousy at measuring frequency response, and the various correction sheets on the Internet contradict each other).  For music, set your SPL levels for each piece of music by ear, conservatively.

 

With most, but not all sound systems, if you have Audyssey, it will calibrate your system so that reference level -- with movies only --  from your listening position, in your room, will be reached with the main volume control at 0 dB.  It is important to use all 8 microphone positions when Audyssey calibrating.  That reference level will have maximum brief leading edge peaks of 105 dB through your main speakers, and 115 dB brief leading edge peaks through your subwoofer. 

 

If you have very efficient speakers (like Klipsch RF 7s, La Scalas, Belle Klipsch, Klipschorns, etc.) you have to do some fancy foot work to get a known main volume control position that is equal to reference level in your room.  Audyssey wil lock your volume control at 0 while calibrating, then try to turn your very efficient speakers down when setting the internal trims, but will not be able to turn them down enough.  There are various ways to deal with this, some of which are discussed by Audyssey in their materials.  One way is to use attenuators while calibrating, to do the equivalent of making your speakers temporarily less efficient, then take the attenuators off after calibration.  Reference level will now be below 0, by a number of dBs equal to the value of the attenuators.  For instance, with my Klipschorn/Belle system, reference level = -12 dB.  Unfortunately, this method only works if you have a processor loop, or if you have separate power amplifier(s), so the attenuators can be temporarily inserted between the preamp/processor and the power amp.  There are a couple of other ways to do it.  One was explained by Chris K (Audyssey CTO) on Ask Audyssey, and another one was used by another Klipsch forum member, whose name I forget.

 

garyrc,

 

After reading this thread your response reminds me of the old song by the Talking Heads, "Stop Making Sense".

 

Speaking of loudness, when you listen very loud it will depend on if you have a room that is 10x12x7 or 25x20x12 with an open wall and how far you sit away from the speakers.  The amount of power you use for the same loudness in the bigger room will probably be four times.

 

As far as amplifiers, if you had something like an Emotiva with LEDs to show instantaneous output vs a VU meter which typically has a long rise time and typically shows average, you might know a lot more about what the amplifier is doing with the speakers.  If you had am amp like an Adcom, you could see when the amplifier went into distortion.  I had an original set of Paradigm Studio Monitor speakers (precursor to the Studio 100s) and I used to see the Adcom instantaneous distortion lights flash on that unit.  Mind you that they would only flash but that was 325 watts or so.  The key is really how long you operate in distortion as higher clean power has less chance of blowing a speaker.  In the 70s I had a Harman Kardon 20 watt integrated amp that had blown the woofers in a quite robust speaker at the time, a BIC Venturi 6 which handled 125 watts.  You do the math, 200Watt Adcom powering to 300+ watts into 2 8" woofers that sang or a 20watt powering a robust 12" that blew.

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in theory could I turn the volume to max without damaging anything

NO!   As everyone here has mostly already said, there is no such thing as a meaningful "max."  The VC isn't like a water faucet, with a pre-determined maximum outflow that all the other components could be designed to work with.  If there was an industry standard for "max" (measured amplifier/receiver v. out), then you might be able to think of all-the-way-up as the reasonable "max" setting for that system.  However, speaker efficiency is just one of the huge unknowns in this equation, probably makes an industry standard impossible.

 

Lacking such a standard, one receiver's max can take the amp and speaker output beyond the moon and blow everything out, while another's might not do that.  Depending on speaker efficiency, too.  The industry will tend to go too far rather than fall short.

 

With apologies for putting it this way, you are very unclear regarding just what "max" means.  You would harm your setup if you took your concept seriously.  Like blowing out all your woofers.

Edited by LarryC

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Reference level is 0 on most avr's. I use the avr as a preamp and have a 200 watt acurus amp powering the mains and center currently. I turn it all the way up with impunity all the time. I have a buddy with a 125 watt Pioneer avr and a Emotiva 200 watt amp powering the mains and he runs at reference all the time. It just depends on all the gear in the chain and the quality of the components.

The disclaimer is that we run the mains as small and use subs. At times we have ran 10 db's + over reference. The key is careful experimentation with your system and knowing it's limits. For most people the RF 7 or 7 II's don't need 200 watts in most rooms if any.

technically you are correct. However your wrong at the same time. I had a denon 1713 powering a rf-42ii home theater. And while i could turn the volume to zero I can assure you it was not playing reference. Reference is 105db at the MLP. No if and or buts that the only volume that qualifies at reference. You need a descent spl meter to measure this.

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Kelly, I have blown 200 rms speakers with a 35 wpc amp. I would never suggest completely cranking up the max volume on any combo of speakers and amp....regardless of rating. Either the amp will clip, or the speakers will blow.

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After reading this thread your response reminds me of the old song by the Talking Heads, "Stop Making Sense".

 

For the record, there isn't a song by Talking Heads called "Stop Making Sense." :)

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in theory could I turn the volume to max without damaging anything

NO! As everyone here has mostly already said, there is no such thing as a meaningful "max." The VC isn't like a water faucet, with a pre-determined maximum outflow that all the other components could be designed to work with. If there was an industry standard for "max" (measured amplifier/receiver v. out), then you might be able to think of all-the-way-up as the reasonable "max" setting for that system. However, speaker efficiency is just one of the huge unknowns in this equation, probably makes an industry standard impossible.

Lacking such a standard, one receiver's max can take the amp and speaker output beyond the moon and blow everything out, while another's might not do that. Depending on speaker efficiency, too. The industry will tend to go too far rather than fall short.

With apologies for putting it this way, you are very unclear regarding just what "max" means. You would harm your setup if you took your concept seriously. Like blowing out all your woofers.

I am not planing on doing this, I ask questions because I don't know the answer(have to start somewhere) the reason I ask, after I hooked up my new sub and receiver I had a friend that wanted me to turn it up all the way, I said no because I have no idea what would happen, so I got thinking about it and thought this would be a good place to ask, thanks for your feedback, sorry for making u angry

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