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fuzzydog

Seeking Subwoofer Advice

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I'm seeking out the wisdom of this forum to help me decide on a subwoofer for my new home theater.  My room is approximately 3,450 cubic feet in volume.  You can see its layout in my build thread here: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/158099-fds-dolby-atmos-ht-design-build-thread/

 

The accompanying speakers will be those shown in my signature below. 

 

Other considerations include:

 

I'd like to keep the total cost at less than $1500.

I'm open to multiple smaller subs.

I'd like to have a wood finish to match my cherry mains, but its not a requirement.

 

So far I've been looking at Rythmic FV15HP, various models from PSA, or even the Klipsch R-115SW as a budget option.

 

Your thoughts would be appreciated. 

 

Regards

 

 

Edited by FuzzyDog

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Well since I just ordered the v3600i from PSA I'd say give them a look. Tom is a top notch guy who knows his stuff and was very helpful in answering all my questions. Plus their 30 day risk free trial is hard to beat. For your budget they have the dual opposed s3000i sealed sub. It's two 15"s drivers in a sealed box. I'd give them a call though, and give them the low down on your room to better help you find the right sub for your room and budget.

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In your room, it would be great to have 4 subs and put one in each corner.  You'd have very little EQ to do that way and have even coverage.  It would bust your budget unless you went DIY though.  Look for a pair of good subs.

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FuzzyDog,

 Dual subs w/cherry veneeer? for <$1500.  Sounds like used or DIY. I was able to come in at $1400 for my 2 used RSW-15s. But it was a 6 month process searching and waiting and going to pick them up. And at approx. 10 years old already who knows how long they'll last.

Edited by babadono

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Going to be hard to match your mains with a factory offering.  Even if you found a manufacturer that uses cherry (Velodyne), getting the shade right is going to be hard.  

 

The thing with your corners is that you have those two doors that both open into the corner on the back left, and apparently another door on the other side that also opens into the corner.  That may be awkward, and unless they are heavy solid core, you might have some rattling.  

 

The cleanest sounding setup is supposedly one in the middle of each wall.  Looks like you have room for that if you can stand one being in that cubby hole behind the projector.  Looks like it goes to a window, can't tell.  Next best thing is the corners, should actually be louder in the corners but it adds some coloration.  Harman has a whitepaper that explains the pros and cons of each setup like this.  

 

Worst case, some up front would work but you'd have more room mode issues.  However this does help with front staging on music.  Me personally, when there's a 70-80 hz bass guitar tone or big floor tom hit, I want it to come from the screen and only from the screen.  To me, music sounds best with subs up front because of this.  Explosions and low thumps, doesn't matter.  Higher frequencies are in fact directional though, and rear staging is usually a bad thing.  

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

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You also seem to be sitting right in the middle of the room, which is about the worst position to catch nulls and whatnot.  One on each corner or wall may be about your only choice.  

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It would bust your budget unless you went DIY though.

 

I'd love a couple of DIY 18's, but I just don't have the time for a project these days so I'm looking for plug & play.

 

Going to be hard to match your mains with a factory offering. Even if you found a manufacturer that uses cherry (Velodyne), getting the shade right is going to be hard.

 

The "American Cherry" color veneer offered by PSA looks very close in the pics to my RF-7II's.  They only offer it in their sealed 15" (PSA S1500) and dual sealed 15" (PSA S3000i)models.

 

The thing with your corners is that you have those two doors that both open into the corner on the back left, and apparently another door on the other side that also opens into the corner. That may be awkward, and unless they are heavy solid core, you might have some rattling.

 

I have the right rear corner pre-wired for a subwoofer and I'm pretty sure I could fit something like the PSA S3000i back there.  The doors in the room are all exterior doors with weather stripping which makes them pretty tight. 

 

Higher frequencies are in fact directional though, and rear staging is usually a bad thing.

 

I'd read that 80Hz and below is supposed to be non-directional.  Could you just lower the crossover to 70 or 60 Hz to avoid this issue?

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Find a local cabinet builder, you should be able to get 2 good subwoofers with Cherry veneer custom built for that price.

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Find a local cabinet builder, you should be able to get 2 good subwoofers with Cherry veneer custom built for that price.

 

I knew you guys would try talking me into DIY.  I cant even find a cabinet builder willing to build me a half door/baby gate in Charleston.  They're only accepting complete new house construction and/or renovation jobs these days. 

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Find a local cabinet builder, you should be able to get 2 good subwoofers with Cherry veneer custom built for that price.

 

I knew you guys would try talking me into DIY.  I cant even find a cabinet builder willing to build me a half door/baby gate in Charleston.  They're only accepting complete new house construction and/or renovation jobs these days. 

 

 

Its only DIY if you do it yourself.

 

You are looking for the wrong type of carpenter.

 

Kitchen cabinets, custom furniture and things like that is what you are looking for.

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That is a large room with open spaces.  To be honest two 15 in ported subs may do it depending on your goals.  Rythmik get's my vote as the best ID 15 in. sub.  What you can also consider is the Dayton UM 18 kits that can be put together is a couple of hours.  They will be not larger than Rythmik sub, actually a bit smaller.  You can paint/veener them or get someone else to do it at your leisure.

 

The kits are $354 and all you need is some wood glue, polyfil and a screw driver. You can get an I Nuke 6000 DSP amp to run both subs.  So, two good subs for under a grand!  One guy put a nice one together using duct tape.  I have a pair that I painted copper.  You can see the bottles of glue in the background on the pic, lol.

post-50685-0-79200000-1450293564_thumb.j

Edited by derrickdj1
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What you can also consider is the Dayton UM 18 kits that can be put together is a couple of hours.

 

How long does it take with a toddler hanging on your leg?

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What you can also consider is the Dayton UM 18 kits that can be put together is a couple of hours.

 

How long does it take with a toddler hanging on your leg?

 

 

Nap time project.

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Higher frequencies are in fact directional though, and rear staging is usually a bad thing.

 

I'd read that 80Hz and below is supposed to be non-directional.  Could you just lower the crossover to 70 or 60 Hz to avoid this issue?

 

 

According to Bill F, anything below 100 hz cannot be localized, but the harmonics can be.  

 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1268766-what-point-does-bass-become-omni-directional.html#post19027016

 

I dunno though, I can easily tell where the subs are at any volume, until you get down to probably 50 hz and below.  At that point I can't localize it, even when pushed real hard where distortion in the form of harmonics would be occurring.  Bass guitar, kick drums, big floor toms, I can tell where the subs are and its annoying if it's not coming from the screen area.  

 

If everything below 80 hz is onmidirectional, there wouldn't be such things as surround subwoofers in commercial theaters.  There should be no need for it.  

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Higher frequencies are in fact directional though, and rear staging is usually a bad thing.

 

I'd read that 80Hz and below is supposed to be non-directional.  Could you just lower the crossover to 70 or 60 Hz to avoid this issue?

 

 

According to Bill F, anything below 100 hz cannot be localized, but the harmonics can be.  

 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1268766-what-point-does-bass-become-omni-directional.html#post19027016

 

I dunno though, I can easily tell where the subs are at any volume, until you get down to probably 50 hz and below.  At that point I can't localize it, even when pushed real hard where distortion in the form of harmonics would be occurring.  Bass guitar, kick drums, big floor toms, I can tell where the subs are and its annoying if it's not coming from the screen area.  

 

If everything below 80 hz is onmidirectional, there wouldn't be such things as surround subwoofers in commercial theaters.  There should be no need for it.  

 

 

If you can localize anything over 50 Hz its probably harmonic distortion overtones you are hearing.

Edited by jason str

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If you can localize anything over 50 Hz its probably harmonic distortion overtones you are hearing.

 

 

May very well be but that makes it sound like it's all transducer distortion.  At least with my original statement I am mostly talking about music and I think most of it is in the original source, even though yes that's still harmonic distortion.  examples: 

 

Bass guitars literally play the entire frequency spectrum, and an 80 hz crossover is not a brick wall.  Your standard receiver has a 12 db per octave slope on the sub side.  That means 160 hz is still coming through your subs, it's just 12 db down.  320 hz will come through as well, it's just 24 db down.  These frequencies are easily localizable.  Play a bass guitar note on a concert blu ray and these harmonics will exist in the original source regardless of transducer distortion on the end user's system, the subs will be fed material that's over 100 hz.  

 

Same thing with floor toms, a 16" has a root frequency of 130 hz and a 14" 175 hz, but they come through the subs at least partially.  This is definitely localizable and a drum playing such frequencies sounds better coming from up front.  

 

Even an electric guitar has a root note of 82 hz but the harmonics goes all the way up to 5 khz or so.  Some of it is going to bleed in through your subs.  

 

Also consider that most people jack the crossover up fairly high on their LFE channel.  80 hz is like the lowest you can usually set it to, most people have it higher, common receivers lets you go up to like 250 hz or so.  Any higher than the lowest setting at all and you're into directional territory.  

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My subs are within 4 ft and I can't tell they are on until an explosion or loud passage.  Most localization is due to an isolated sub far from other speakers, or having the sub level to high.  The rule of setting the sub to 75 db may be OK for one sub but, a lower setting is needed for multiple subs.  Each sub in my system is set to 66-68 db.

 

I have never read a paper relating localization to harmonic overtones and would love to see one.  Another point to ponder, generally under 80 Hz the sound is omnidirectional.  Certain freqeuncies under 80 Hz can be felt and that can give a cue as to where it is coming from.

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If you can localize anything over 50 Hz its probably harmonic distortion overtones you are hearing.

 

 

May very well be but that makes it sound like it's all transducer distortion.  At least with my original statement I am mostly talking about music and I think most of it is in the original source, even though yes that's still harmonic distortion.  examples: 

 

Bass guitars literally play the entire frequency spectrum, and an 80 hz crossover is not a brick wall.  Your standard receiver has a 12 db per octave slope on the sub side.  That means 160 hz is still coming through your subs, it's just 12 db down.  320 hz will come through as well, it's just 24 db down.  These frequencies are easily localizable.  Play a bass guitar note on a concert blu ray and these harmonics will exist in the original source regardless of transducer distortion on the end user's system, the subs will be fed material that's over 100 hz.  

 

Same thing with floor toms, a 16" has a root frequency of 130 hz and a 14" 175 hz, but they come through the subs at least partially.  This is definitely localizable and a drum playing such frequencies sounds better coming from up front.  

 

Even an electric guitar has a root note of 82 hz but the harmonics goes all the way up to 5 khz or so.  Some of it is going to bleed in through your subs.  

 

Also consider that most people jack the crossover up fairly high on their LFE channel.  80 hz is like the lowest you can usually set it to, most people have it higher, common receivers lets you go up to like 250 hz or so.  Any higher than the lowest setting at all and you're into directional territory.  

 

 

It is transducer distortion.

 

Not going to hear it through a horn.

 

Just messing up Fuzzy's thread with this, i apologize.

Edited by jason str

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