Seeking Subwoofer Advice

[Paducah Home Theater]

 

 

I'd rather buy one high quality sub and add another later if needed. I'd worry that I'd get upgradeitus if I had two of the Klipsch subs.

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator-218ht/

 

 

For the price of the single 18 you could have a custom Cherry THT built to match the rest of your system, it would make that sound like a children's toy.

 

 

Every time you say such things you leave out the entire extension aspect.  This ain't car audio, this is home theater.  Extension is important.  

 

A single captivator 1400 was independently measured at being only 1 db down from flat at 16 hz, out in the middle of a lawn.  

 

A THT has to get its measurements in-room, with a 12 db per octave below 30 hz cabin gain, placed in a corner, and even then, according to multiple versions of Bill's own graphs, the 3 db down point for a 24" is 45 hz.  A 36" is about 26 hz.  At 20 hz, even the 36" version is 12 db down, apparently even with cabin gain.  Most people don't ever measure below that but Bill does have one graph showing that at 16 hz it's 20 db down.  This is apparently with cabin gain, it should be over 30 db down at that point if so.  

 

20 db down at 16 hz, seemingly in the corner of a room, making it more like over 30 db down in reality if measured the same... vs. 1 db down, out in the middle of a lawn, where it's hitting 109 db.  At 16 hz.  Unfortunately, with only one 15 that's typically a 400 watt Dayton Reference with 14mm xmax, you can't make that back up with EQ and more power either, its just lost.  And you say the Captivator will sound like a toy.  

 

As for distortion, yes at 20 hz the THT was measured at 4.5% distortion at 114 db.  The captivator was measured at less than 5% at 100 db, 6% at 105 db, and less than 10% at 110 db.  It gets more ridiculous after that, but, this is also measuring out in the middle of a lawn.  The THT is measured in-room, in a corner, with an admitted 12 db per octave cabin gain.  Just not comparing apples to apples here.  The captivator is having to pump out WAY more sound at the same numbers.  

Edited December 17, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[CECAA850]

Just not comparing apples to apples here.

 

Not gonna happen.

[babadono]

 

 

If you can localize anything over 50 Hz its probably harmonic distortion overtones you are hearing.

50 up to what? Just for clarity. I don't want to tell people what they can and cannot hear. Sorry for the hijack.

 

 

Don't understand what you are referring to.

 

I am referring to at some higher frequency you can start to detect(localize) where a sound is coming from. For clarification what is that frequency?

[jason str]

 

 

 

I'd rather buy one high quality sub and add another later if needed. I'd worry that I'd get upgradeitus if I had two of the Klipsch subs.

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator-218ht/

 

 

For the price of the single 18 you could have a custom Cherry THT built to match the rest of your system, it would make that sound like a children's toy.

 

 

Every time you say such things you leave out the entire extension aspect.  This ain't car audio, this is home theater.  Extension is important.  

 

A single captivator 1400 was independently measured at being only 1 db down from flat at 16 hz, out in the middle of a lawn.  

 

A THT has to get its measurements in-room, with a 12 db per octave below 30 hz cabin gain, placed in a corner, and even then, according to multiple versions of Bill's own graphs, the 3 db down point for a 24" is 45 hz.  A 36" is about 26 hz.  At 20 hz, even the 36" version is 12 db down, apparently even with cabin gain.  Most people don't ever measure below that but Bill does have one graph showing that at 16 hz it's 20 db down.  This is apparently with cabin gain, it should be over 30 db down at that point if so.  

 

20 db down at 16 hz, seemingly in the corner of a room, making it more like over 30 db down in reality if measured the same... vs. 1 db down, out in the middle of a lawn, where it's hitting 109 db.  At 16 hz.  Unfortunately, with only one 15 that's typically a 400 watt Dayton Reference with 14mm xmax, you can't make that back up with EQ and more power either, its just lost.  And you say the Captivator will sound like a toy.  

 

As for distortion, yes at 20 hz the THT was measured at 4.5% distortion at 114 db.  The captivator was measured at less than 5% at 100 db, 6% at 105 db, and less than 10% at 110 db.  It gets more ridiculous after that, but, this is also measuring out in the middle of a lawn.  The THT is measured in-room, in a corner, with an admitted 12 db per octave cabin gain.  Just not comparing apples to apples here.  The captivator is having to pump out WAY more sound at the same numbers.  

 

 

Depending on the room but average should be pretty flat to 18-20 Hz.

 

Lets not forget the THT has superior transients & much better midbass not to mention much lower distortion.

 

To compare a single 18 of any kind is just silly no matter how you put it, stop trying to fool yourself.

 

Link to actual measurements.  Here

 

Who really listens to music at 115 dB anyways, at even loud levels distortion from the THT is undetectable.

Edited December 17, 2015 by jason str

[jason str]

 

 

 

If you can localize anything over 50 Hz its probably harmonic distortion overtones you are hearing.

50 up to what? Just for clarity. I don't want to tell people what they can and cannot hear. Sorry for the hijack.

 

 

Don't understand what you are referring to.

 

I am referring to at some higher frequency you can start to detect(localize) where a sound is coming from. For clarification what is that frequency?

 

 

Much depends on the space, if the contents of the room is flopping around its the contents closest to the subwoofer you can hear.

 

Me personally i like to keep it under 100 Hz or so, anything over that it gets noticed pretty easily.

 

Horn loaded subs are different than direct radiating models so YMMV.

[Quiet_Hollow]

Every time you say such things you leave out the entire extension aspect. This ain't car audio, this is home theater. Extension is important.

 

 

You need to come over my place. We'll have a talk about about horn subwoofers and numbers.

[CECAA850]

 

Every time you say such things you leave out the entire extension aspect. This ain't car audio, this is home theater. Extension is important.

 

 

You need to come over my place. We'll have a talk about about horn subwoofers and numbers.

 

 

Better yet, the next gathering in Hope.

[Paducah Home Theater]

not to mention much lower distortion.

 

 

Serious question... does it really matter for the frequencies in question?  

 

Assuming Bill's stated 12 db/octave and doing some ghetto math, if you add approximately 8 db for room gain to the JTR's 105 db measurements, you've got 20 hz playing at 113 db with less than 6% distortion.  A THT was measured at 114 db with 4.5% distortion.  I for one wouldn't be able to tell the difference.  

 

 

Interesting read: 

 

http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion

 

 

"our detection threshold for noise (made up of harmonically related and non-harmonically related test tones) is practically non-existent at low frequencies."

 

"Put another way, our ability to hear the test frequency noise tones at frequencies of 40 Hz and below is extremely crude. Indeed, the results show we are virtually deaf to these distortions at those frequencies."'

 

"At 40 Hz, listeners accepted 100% distortion before they complained."

 

 

It's interesting to me that people think they can hear the difference in single digit distortion differences among sub-bass frequencies.  My ears aren't that good unfortunately.  

 

 

These aren't random goobers such as I saying this stuff either, look up the authors:

 

http://www.axiomaudio.com/lofft

 

http://www.axiomaudio.com/research_tom

Edited December 17, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[CECAA850]

Until there's a standardized test for subwoofers, it'll be apples and oranges as I've stated.  Everybody's room is different and everyone will have different gain at different frequencies.  Outdoor ground plane measurements on various boxes would give you a better picture of how subs stack up against each other.

[jason str]

 

not to mention much lower distortion.

 

 

Serious question... does it really matter for the frequencies in question?  

 

Yes, it matters very much to people who care what their music sounds like.

 

Assuming Bill's stated 12 db/octave and doing some ghetto math,

 

Bill has probably forgotten more than you will ever know about loudspeakers, no reason to insult somebody who is not here to defend themselves.

 

if you add approximately 8 db for room gain to the JTR's 105 db measurements, you've got 20 hz playing at 113 db with less than 6% distortion.  A THT was measured at 114 db with 4.5% distortion.  I for one wouldn't be able to tell the difference.  

 

Must be deaf, can't help you with that.

 

 

Interesting read: 

 

http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion

 

 

"our detection threshold for noise (made up of harmonically related and non-harmonically related test tones) is practically non-existent at low frequencies."

 

"Put another way, our ability to hear the test frequency noise tones at frequencies of 40 Hz and below is extremely crude. Indeed, the results show we are virtually deaf to these distortions at those frequencies."'

 

"At 40 Hz, listeners accepted 100% distortion before they complained."

 

Deaf & dumb, can't help with that either.

 

 

It's interesting to me that people think they can hear the difference in single digit distortion differences among sub-bass frequencies.  My ears aren't that good unfortunately.  

 

Ahh, that explains alot.

 

 

These aren't random goobers such as I saying this stuff either, look up the authors:

 

http://www.axiomaudio.com/lofft

 

http://www.axiomaudio.com/research_tom

 

The Cornwall & K-horn use the same drivers, do they sound the same ?  I think not.

 

If one spends years in front of a good horn loaded subwoofer and then listens to other models the difference is quite substantial i assure you.

 

Some have to hear it in person, you are one of them it seems. Posting links is not going to change my mind or most others who have spent time living life with little to no distortion.

 

[Paducah Home Theater]

Yes, it matters very much to people who care what their music sounds like.

I referenced a controlled study where multiple experts tested several people of all ages in blind tests and they could not tell the difference in distortion among sub-bass frequencies except for insane distortion numbers, literally had to get to triple digits at 40 hz before they noticed. If its been proven that you can't tell the difference in VERY large numbers in sub-bass frequencies, then why do relatively tiny numbers matter? Saying that people care anyway isn't an answer.

 

Bill has probably forgotten more than you will ever know about loudspeakers, no reason to insult somebody who is not here to defend themselves.

My goodness dude. Why on earth do you think I'm insulting Bill? He stated a 12 db per octave cabin gain. If anything I'm trusting him on this. Based on that, 15 hz is one octave lower and would be a 12 db gain based on his statement. Half that is 22.5 hz and would be 6 db. 18.75 should be 9 db. (22.5-18.75)/3 = 20 hz at an 8 db gain. aka. "ghetto math". aka. making fun of my own poor math skills, not Bill. There's got to be a more eloquent way of solving that equation using calculus or something.

 

Must be deaf, can't help you with that.

So you'd be able to tell the difference between less than 1.5% difference in distortion, at 20 hz, at an SPL near maximum peak reference level, with an actual movie or even music track playing, and anybody who cannot is deaf? That seems to be what you're claiming. I don't know what to think of it.

 

Some have to hear it in person, you are one of them it seems.

Nope, and you haven't heard the wall/stack of 18's you have mentioned multiple times as being obviously inferior either, or any 18's as far as that goes. I'm going to have to build one myself it seems, need something for my living room anyway, should be perfect as a large coffee table music based sub in a 9,000 cubic foot room.

Edited December 17, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[jason str]

First and foremost i apologize to Fuzzy for crapping on the thread but trying to answer questions here.

 

Second I'm sure PWK would not want somebody selling his products talking smack about horns.

 

 

 

Yes, it matters very much to people who care what their music sounds like.

I referenced a controlled study where multiple experts tested several people of all ages in blind tests and they could not tell the difference in distortion among sub-bass frequencies except for insane distortion numbers, literally triple digits at 40 hz. If its been proven that you can't tell the difference in VERY large numbers in sub-bass frequencies, then why do relatively tiny numbers matter? Saying that people care anyway isn't an answer.

 

The woofer is most what needs horn loading as it has the most movement, pure and simple.

 

If i can hear it and lots of others here can who cares what others think, PWK heard it and I'm sure that is why he devoted his life to the cause.


 

Bill has probably forgotten more than you will ever know about loudspeakers, no reason to insult somebody who is not here to defend themselves.

My goodness dude. Why on earth do you think I'm insulting Bill? He stated a 12 db per octave cabin gain. If anything I'm trusting him on this. Based on that, 15 hz is one octave lower and would be a 12 db gain based on his statement. Half that is 22.5 hz and would be 6 db. 18.75 should be 9 db. (22.5-18.75)/3 = 20 hz at an 8 db gain. aka. "ghetto math". aka. making fun of my own poor math skills, not Bill. There's got to be a more eloquent way of solving that equation.

 

Sorry but getto math sure sounds like an insult to me weather it was meant to be or not.

 

Cabin gain is not always an easy thing to figure out and I'm sure its why he uses an average, if all rooms were the same things would be easy.


 

Must be deaf, can't help you with that.

So you'd be able to tell the difference between less than 1.5% difference in distortion, at 20 hz, at an SPL near maximum peak reference level, with an actual movie playing, and anybody who cannot is deaf? That seems to be what you're claiming. I don't know what to think of it.

 

Not sure where you get your numbers or if i could tell a 1.5 % difference as i never compared numbers but distortion heard by somebody who has lived without for many years should be able to hear the difference.

 

 

Some have to hear it in person, you are one of them it seems.

Nope, and you haven't heard the wall/stack of 18's you have mentioned multiple times as being obviously inferior either. I'm going to have to build one myself it seems, need something for my living room anyway, should be perfect as a large coffee table sub in a 9,000 cubic foot room.

 

I have answered this already and mentioned i have heard 18's on multiple occasions so your post is just bunk and putting words in my mouth makes you sound stupid period.

 

Not sure what is up with your 18's infatuation but woofer size is not that big of a deal.

 

This is what i do for a living, have heard tons of different systems and have good ears and good sense of what sounds good or not.

 

If you want to continue crapping on PWK's lifes work please start another thread so not to ugly up Fuzzys post.

 

[CECAA850]

Sorry but getto math sure sounds like an insult to me weather it was meant to be or not.

 

How can you not see that he was referring to himself and not BFM?

[jason str]

 

Sorry but getto math sure sounds like an insult to me weather it was meant to be or not.

 

How can you not see that he was referring to himself and not BFM?

 

 

The post has been edited but its possible i read it wrong too.

 

Just sounded insulting to me, no harm, no foul.

[derrickdj1]

I was trying to stay out of this one, lol.  The most credible soure for the DYI sub community and ID companies for comparing subs is database.com, _{and Josh Ricci.  Distrotion  of signal digits like 4.5 and 6 can't be distingushed betwee two subs.  This has been tested.  You may hear som other qualitative difference due to design type or emphasis of a certain frequecy.  The distortion being discussed at 113 db or higher is not a realistic discussion since in HT, this is an explosion, crash, ect.  In music most sane people are not continuously listening that loud for that long if they want to keep their golden ears and hearing. At reasonable listening levels these distortion figures drop dramatically.} 

 

_{Horn sub guys love their sub as do people with other design type like band pass, IB or direct radiators.  They all have their pro's and con's.  All can achieve excellent results with proper setup and application.  My UM 18 direct radiator subs have less than 2% distortion 30 Hz and up.  This should and dose sound great with music.  Little music is under 30 Hz unless you are into pipe organs.  The 2% number comes from database.com.  This distortion thing comes up a lot and is misleading to less informed reader.  Now if a horn subs 30 Hz and up is 1%, you can't and will not hear a difference between that sub and my UM 18's.  If you can, then you represent 0.0001% of the population, which would not be applicable to the general population, lol.}

Edited December 17, 2015 by derrickdj1

[jason str]

This thread is getting WAY off track, lets be kind to our fellow forum members and start a new thread on the subject.

[CECAA850]

The OP is seeking advise and welcomed any and all info.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Second I'm sure PWK would not want somebody selling his products talking smack about horns.

 

 

It would be nice to discuss science rather than trying to defend against snarky remarks and personal attacks.  Just saying.  Getting real old.  

 

 

For the record I'm not talking smack about horns in general.  I'm talking smack against the insistence that a standard single 15 solution is the end-game for modern home theater subwoofers.  

 

First and foremost, you're shooting yourself in the foot in the subsonic (and slightly above) department in terms of natural frequency response.  Every measurement out there shows this, even in-room response.  Every user who isn't a starry eyed fanboy admits this.  Subsonic response is the new hotness, it would be wise to not ignore it.  What sucks is that even if you do finally recognize that you don't have much in this department and that your lowest end response looks like a ski slope below 25 hz, you don't have the amp overhead, the woofer capability, or a DSP to actually do anything about it.  A single horn has got room mode issues just like everybody else as well.  For home theater, smoothing those out and extending your frequency response would serve you better than chasing after single digit distortion improvements at 20 hz.  

Edited December 18, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Jay L]

I recommend 4 R-115SW for performance/dollar, or however many you can afford.  I have two, and they sound more musical than the RSW-15. I also owned 2 of those in the exact same spots in my HT. I am sure the ID subs are good, but you know you want some copper!

 

A couple thoughts on subwoofers...

 

Your crossover frequency is always variable in the acoustic domain, unlike the setting in your bass management. As you turn up the volume your subwoofer produces more HF. This usually is where inductance distortion becomes a large factor. Another factor that can give away a subwoofers location is the stuff around it vibrating. A picture frame on a latex painted wall can make a ticking sound to drive a man insane, true story! 

 

Distortion numbers given in % doesn't really mean as much compared to stating them for an amplifier. As already stated you can go pretty high in distortion with subwoofers before becoming annoying. It is that top end of the sub you really want to keep down. 

[jason str]

I was trying to stay out of this one, lol.  The most credible soure for the DYI sub community and ID companies for comparing subs is database.com, _{and Josh Ricci.  Distrotion  of signal digits like 4.5 and 6 can't be distingushed betwee two subs.  This has been tested.  You may hear som other qualitative difference due to design type or emphasis of a certain frequecy.  The distortion being discussed at 113 db or higher is not a realistic discussion since in HT, this is an explosion, crash, ect.  In music most sane people are not continuously listening that loud for that long if they want to keep their golden ears and hearing. At reasonable listening levels these distortion figures drop dramatically.} 

 

_{Horn sub guys love their sub as do people with other design type like band pass, IB or direct radiators.  They all have their pro's and con's.  All can achieve excellent results with proper setup and application.  My UM 18 direct radiator subs have less than 2% distortion 30 Hz and up.  This should and dose sound great with music.  Little music is under 30 Hz unless you are into pipe organs.  The 2% number comes from database.com.  This distortion thing comes up a lot and is misleading to less informed reader.  Now if a horn subs 30 Hz and up is 1%, you can't and will not hear a difference between that sub and my UM 18's.  If you can, then you represent 0.0001% of the population, which would not be applicable to the general population, lol.}

 

 

Second I'm sure PWK would not want somebody selling his products talking smack about horns.

 

 

It would be nice to discuss science rather than trying to defend against snarky remarks and personal attacks.  Just saying.  Getting real old.  

 

 

For the record I'm not talking smack about horns in general.  I'm talking smack against the insistence that a standard single 15 solution is the end-game for modern home theater subwoofers.  

 

First and foremost, you're shooting yourself in the foot in the subsonic (and slightly above) department in terms of natural frequency response.  Every measurement out there shows this, even in-room response.  Every user who isn't a starry eyed fanboy admits this.  Subsonic response is the new hotness, it would be wise to not ignore it.  What sucks is that even if you do finally recognize that you don't have much in this department and that your lowest end response looks like a ski slope below 25 hz, you don't have the amp overhead, the woofer capability, or a DSP to actually do anything about it.  A single horn has got room mode issues just like everybody else as well.  For home theater, smoothing those out and extending your frequency response would serve you better than chasing after single digit distortion improvements at 20 hz.  

 

 

So not to muck up Fuzzy's thread with this horn debate.

 

It should make it easier for others to find information on the subject without having to poke through another thread.

 

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