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jason str

Why horns.

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No such animal as fast vs slow bass.  By definition, bass is slow for the most part.  Lighter weight driver may have a higher sensitivity and be a little better in the upper bass usually above the subwoofer band of 20-80 or 100 Hz.

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I like both horn loaded and direct radiating for different reasons......with horn loaded have the edge especially in the two-channel dept. I haven't compared them in a home theatre environment yet.

 

My experience so far comparing the two in my rooms.....

 

Direct radiating:

 

1.Much more difficult to integrate than horn loaded. Constantly fiddling song to song, album to album.

2.Tend to sound 'thumpy' (which I like) but doesn't always integrate properly for music.

3.Have an 'air-like' punch to them. Which I also like but lends itself to HT and not so much for music. Some music it sounds really cool but not natural. Can be very artificial, fake sounding....but cool.

 

Horn Loaded Tuba:

 

1. They blend so easily into the mains like no other sub I've ever had. Once they were dialed in, I haven't had to mess with them since.

2. They're so much more musical it isn't even funny. Cleaner and more natural sounding giving the music better fidelity which is the whole point for me.

3. Direct radiating subs I typically have to cut-off pretty low for music. Horns I can cut-off much higher.....punchier, more musical bass.

4. Horns are BIG but in a corner it's not an issue. Think K-horn.

 

Sometimes I just prefer the characteristics of a direct radiating sub depending on mood. However for accuracy, fidelity and natural sounding bass the horn loaded THTLP has really impressed me for two-channel playback. I will also say that I have never gone the DIY direct radiating route. Maybe someday.....seems they would be very easy to build and would be fun.

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Question.....

What are your guys opinions on "scoops"?? I have toyed with getting a couple....two 18" There's a local guy that does DJ and sound stage.....he makes them...they look really cool...

Me and the wife went to a show at a night club in Baltimore a few years back. We saw the Crystal Method...techno...lots of Bass.... The night club had scoops....lots of em.

I have never...I mean never heard/felt Bass like that.... I could feel my insides....when I breathed in through my nose I could feel my nostrils vibrate....man it was unreal....

I have been to more shows than I can remember, rock, metal all had great Bass....but notthing like that club show....

So scoops...what do ya think??

MKP :-)

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I like both horn loaded and direct radiating for different reasons......with horn loaded have the edge especially in the two-channel dept. I haven't compared them in a home theatre environment yet.

 

My experience so far comparing the two in my rooms.....

 

Direct radiating:

 

1.Much more difficult to integrate than horn loaded. Constantly fiddling song to song, album to album.

2.Tend to sound 'thumpy' (which I like) but doesn't always integrate properly for music.

3.Have an 'air-like' punch to them. Which I also like but lends itself to HT and not so much for music. Some music it sounds really cool but not natural. Can be very artificial, fake sounding....but cool.

 

Horn Loaded Tuba:

 

1. They blend so easily into the mains like no other sub I've ever had. Once they were dialed in, I haven't had to mess with them since.

2. They're so much more musical it isn't even funny. Cleaner and more natural sounding giving the music better fidelity which is the whole point for me.

3. Direct radiating subs I typically have to cut-off pretty low for music. Horns I can cut-off much higher.....punchier, more musical bass.

4. Horns are BIG but in a corner it's not an issue. Think K-horn.

 

Sometimes I just prefer the characteristics of a direct radiating sub depending on mood. However for accuracy, fidelity and natural sounding bass the horn loaded THTLP has really impressed me for two-channel playback. I will also say that I have never gone the DIY direct radiating route. Maybe someday.....seems they would be very easy to build and would be fun.

 

 

Scott you mentioned your horn(s) easy to blend and i find this one of the more important things that many have problems with.

 

I like my sound seamless, not being able to tell when the sound crosses over to the subwoofer and the horns do have a big advantage in that department.

 

I also agree with you about the ability to be crossed over higher, another great observation.

 

Great post.

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Question.....

What are your guys opinions on "scoops"?? I have toyed with getting a couple....two 18" There's a local guy that does DJ and sound stage.....he makes them...they look really cool...

Me and the wife went to a show at a night club in Baltimore a few years back. We saw the Crystal Method...techno...lots of Bass.... The night club had scoops....lots of em.

I have never...I mean never heard/felt Bass like that.... I could feel my insides....when I breathed in through my nose I could feel my nostrils vibrate....man it was unreal....

I have been to more shows than I can remember, rock, metal all had great Bass....but notthing like that club show....

So scoops...what do ya think??

MKP :-)

 

Pro sound scoops are fine if you can live with the steep roll off.

 

Unless you have a HUGE room to fill there are better choices out there.

 

If you are looking for something kind of in between the Tuba 60 may be a good alternative.

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Question for everyone on here. I have the forte II's and have been contemplating doing a horn loaded sub for my 2 channel set up. Has anyone on here ever disconnected the woofer from the forte and just used the horn loaded in their set up?

 

I was chatting with someone the other day and also asked if they ever thought of modding the forte with the horn from let's say a KG 4.2 or like speaker and if it would improve on the sound of it.

 

Both these things popped into my head while looking at my set up wondering on whether or not to use bass bins and if I were how to set them up.

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I do not have any measuring equipment, it is not something I care to check. The sealed F3 spec's for a 3 cu ft box are 37hz. Others that installed the same speaker in a 6 cu ft box claimed a lower f3 point but I am too lazy to find the claims. It is plenty low for me and I just wanted a sub that did not boom and would fill in where my LaScala's fall off pretty rapidly. The super lows are not that important to me as others like, I am more of a great mid range guy with a decent bottom end. There are certainly better more expensive ways to get superior lows, it is just my belief as a I have stated cost vs performance it is the best way to go. I do not like a tuned port bass but it satisfies most of the commercial sub buyers. If anyone checks for commercial sealed subs you will find them not that common. They will not go as low as a port sub but they are generally quicker with better transients if you have a really well made speaker and plenty of power.

What subs are you referring to here? Just curious. The debate on weather a sealed sub is "quicker" than its ported counterpart is all BS. Are you really trying to tell me that your sealed sub is faster and sound better than say a Rythmik FV15HP? Or, are you saying an SVS PB13 Ultra is slower and sloppier? I won't even list subs from PSA, Reaction, and JTR. Sealed subs are no quicker than a well designed ported. You might not like port chuffing....but as far as speed and accuracy is concerned, there is no difference.

As for a horn - which in NOT a ported sub, lower distortion and effortless bass. At the same db a horn will be using less watts, and the cone will be moving less. For horns you just need room and the patience to build one. Look at the one Jason is building for himself. I'm betting it doesn't take up that much more floor space as your sealed. So, you can have horns fit into a confined space. If you wan midbass, it's hard to beat a horn with just a single sealed.

 

There are people that like the port better than sealed and then there are people that like sealed over port. I prefer a sealed sub. I looked at the prices of the 2 subs your quote and they are much more expensive than a diy sealed system. Personally I would much prefer a horn sub but size restraints keep me from building one. That and I really see no need for me to do so. Music lives in the mid range. If you want room shaking bass I see no problem with seeking it.  

 

 

The fact that a cabinet is Sealed or ported should not matter very much, what is more important is it is done correctly.

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Question for everyone on here. I have the forte II's and have been contemplating doing a horn loaded sub for my 2 channel set up. Has anyone on here ever disconnected the woofer from the forte and just used the horn loaded in their set up?

 

I was chatting with someone the other day and also asked if they ever thought of modding the forte with the horn from let's say a KG 4.2 or like speaker and if it would improve on the sound of it.

 

Both these things popped into my head while looking at my set up wondering on whether or not to use bass bins and if I were how to set them up.

 

No, wont work.

 

These horns are meant to be used as subwoofers and not able to be crossed over that high.

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I like both horn loaded and direct radiating for different reasons......with horn loaded have the edge especially in the two-channel dept. I haven't compared them in a home theatre environment yet.

 

My experience so far comparing the two in my rooms.....

 

Direct radiating:

 

1.Much more difficult to integrate than horn loaded. Constantly fiddling song to song, album to album.

2.Tend to sound 'thumpy' (which I like) but doesn't always integrate properly for music.

3.Have an 'air-like' punch to them. Which I also like but lends itself to HT and not so much for music. Some music it sounds really cool but not natural. Can be very artificial, fake sounding....but cool.

 

Horn Loaded Tuba:

 

1. They blend so easily into the mains like no other sub I've ever had. Once they were dialed in, I haven't had to mess with them since.

2. They're so much more musical it isn't even funny. Cleaner and more natural sounding giving the music better fidelity which is the whole point for me.

3. Direct radiating subs I typically have to cut-off pretty low for music. Horns I can cut-off much higher.....punchier, more musical bass.

4. Horns are BIG but in a corner it's not an issue. Think K-horn.

 

Sometimes I just prefer the characteristics of a direct radiating sub depending on mood. However for accuracy, fidelity and natural sounding bass the horn loaded THTLP has really impressed me for two-channel playback. I will also say that I have never gone the DIY direct radiating route. Maybe someday.....seems they would be very easy to build and would be fun.

 

 

Scott you mentioned your horn(s) easy to blend and i find this one of the more important things that many have problems with.

 

I like my sound seamless, not being able to tell when the sound crosses over to the subwoofer and the horns do have a big advantage in that department.

 

I also agree with you about the ability to be crossed over higher, another great observation.

 

Great post.

 

 

I also thought this was a great post. 

 

I had the chance to listen to someones set up when I went to pick up a new stylus for my cartridge. They had the big Altec Greenish horns and had done a quad amped DIY set up with home made tweeter encased in what looked to be large thick cardboard tubing with them set back behind the Altecs, then the Altecs, and then a mid bass bin and then a single large lower bass bin.The lower one was a single 10" driver in a platform that was 10 feet long, 4 feet wide, and 18 inches high. All drivers were hooked up using an external crossover system and 4 tube amps. The musicality was out of this world to me and there was such a smooth flow to everything that I couldn't tell where the bass was coming from. The set up also had an Aphex Aural Exciter and when it was turned on you could actually "see" where the musicians were while playing. It instantly made me want to copy this system. The Altec horns were over 4 feet wide and about 2 feet high and about 4 feet deep or so as well. But with my room and availability, I can't do that, so I'm contemplating maybe doing the larger bass bin(s) but don't know what the minimum size would be to use.

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Question for everyone on here. I have the forte II's and have been contemplating doing a horn loaded sub for my 2 channel set up. Has anyone on here ever disconnected the woofer from the forte and just used the horn loaded in their set up?

 

I was chatting with someone the other day and also asked if they ever thought of modding the forte with the horn from let's say a KG 4.2 or like speaker and if it would improve on the sound of it.

 

Both these things popped into my head while looking at my set up wondering on whether or not to use bass bins and if I were how to set them up.

 

No, wont work.

 

These horns are meant to be used as subwoofers and not able to be crossed over that high.

 

 

Jason, I don't know if I was clear with my question, so I will re-post it. Would it work if I disconnected just the sub driver in the forte, and added the external horn sub?I'm assuming I would also need and external crossover then. I would be leaving everything in the forte as is,except disconnecting the wire from the crossovers. I wasn't looking to see if a horn loaded sub could be added into the speakers encasement.

Edited by Jim

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I do not have any measuring equipment, it is not something I care to check. The sealed F3 spec's for a 3 cu ft box are 37hz. Others that installed the same speaker in a 6 cu ft box claimed a lower f3 point but I am too lazy to find the claims. It is plenty low for me and I just wanted a sub that did not boom and would fill in where my LaScala's fall off pretty rapidly. The super lows are not that important to me as others like, I am more of a great mid range guy with a decent bottom end. There are certainly better more expensive ways to get superior lows, it is just my belief as a I have stated cost vs performance it is the best way to go. I do not like a tuned port bass but it satisfies most of the commercial sub buyers. If anyone checks for commercial sealed subs you will find them not that common. They will not go as low as a port sub but they are generally quicker with better transients if you have a really well made speaker and plenty of power.

What subs are you referring to here? Just curious. The debate on weather a sealed sub is "quicker" than its ported counterpart is all BS. Are you really trying to tell me that your sealed sub is faster and sound better than say a Rythmik FV15HP? Or, are you saying an SVS PB13 Ultra is slower and sloppier? I won't even list subs from PSA, Reaction, and JTR. Sealed subs are no quicker than a well designed ported. You might not like port chuffing....but as far as speed and accuracy is concerned, there is no difference.

As for a horn - which in NOT a ported sub, lower distortion and effortless bass. At the same db a horn will be using less watts, and the cone will be moving less. For horns you just need room and the patience to build one. Look at the one Jason is building for himself. I'm betting it doesn't take up that much more floor space as your sealed. So, you can have horns fit into a confined space. If you wan midbass, it's hard to beat a horn with just a single sealed.

There are people that like the port better than sealed and then there are people that like sealed over port. I prefer a sealed sub. I looked at the prices of the 2 subs your quote and they are much more expensive than a diy sealed system. Personally I would much prefer a horn sub but size restraints keep me from building one. That and I really see no need for me to do so. Music lives in the mid range. If you want room shaking bass I see no problem with seeking it.
You totally missed my point. My point was that there is NO difference in SQ or SPEED between ported and sealed. But, you managed to gloss right over that. Any sub you buy outside of DIY will be more expensive. But there are lots of ported subs that you can build that would be equal to your sealed. You prefer sealed, fine. My point isn't to get you to build a ported sub or a horn; but, to correct your assumptions that a sealed is faster and more accurate than ported. It isn't. Period. This has been proven time and time again.

Typed on a tiny keyboard, excuse any grammatical errors.

Edited by Rowan611

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I keep reading these threads about horn subs and seeing some great builds and I'm getting the itch to do something.  I've had ported, sealed and tapped and purchased plans from Bills site a few years ago, but just never got around to it, but, might be time to pick up some more 12mm BB and cut some pieces. 

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Question for everyone on here. I have the forte II's and have been contemplating doing a horn loaded sub for my 2 channel set up. Has anyone on here ever disconnected the woofer from the forte and just used the horn loaded in their set up?

 

I was chatting with someone the other day and also asked if they ever thought of modding the forte with the horn from let's say a KG 4.2 or like speaker and if it would improve on the sound of it.

 

Both these things popped into my head while looking at my set up wondering on whether or not to use bass bins and if I were how to set them up.

 

No, wont work.

 

These horns are meant to be used as subwoofers and not able to be crossed over that high.

 

 

Jason, I don't know if I was clear with my question, so I will re-post it. Would it work if I disconnected just the sub driver in the forte, and added the external horn sub?I'm assuming I would also need and external crossover then. I would be leaving everything in the forte as is,except disconnecting the wire from the crossovers. I wasn't looking to see if a horn loaded sub could be added into the speakers encasement.

 

 

I understood you, you cannot just unhook the woofer in your Forte & use the subwoofer as a replacement.

 

I'm not sure where the crossover point is in the Forte but I'm sure its well above the passband of the subwoofer.

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The question is where are people hitting 115 db

At my last place I had the THT slim dialed in for 117 dB SPL capability across the listening position from 18 Hz up to crossover. During any movies it never saw past 20V.

post-40059-0-31560000-1450540995_thumb.p

15" wide THT, Dayton 310-88, 1/4 space in-room, measured with AS-EQ1, LPF@35Hz, EQ'd ±3dB

 

Our new place has a bigger listening room so more cabinet is in order to accomplish the same. I'll be doubling up the current cab soon, with the likely hood of two more low profile versions in the coming year.

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Integration of horn or DR should be equally easy if measurement equipment is used.  I never thought I needed a mic and measurement software but, it made a huge difference.  Thanks Jason for the nice link to PKW work.  Tom mention power and horns are much more efficient in this regard.  My experience with DR as it relates to power is very positive.  The vast majority of time my amps use less than than 4-6 watts.  Only demanding passage demand massive increase in power.  Music uses even less.  I have been using a large number of subs for a few year and no appreciable change in the electric bill.

 

IM distortion is very low with 2 ch listening because movement of the 18's is not even noticeable.  I feel the use of Omnimic makes dialing in the system so much more precise than relying on Auddysee, MCACC, ect alone.

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I finally got around to trying my TTLS in my unfinished basement/workout room system...about 1000 sq ft. Like I said earlier I put my RSW-15 down there recently and it sounds way better down there than it does in my main listening room. I had high expectations for the TTLS based on my comparisons in my well treated main listening room.

 

Well, you never know until you try.....right?

 

 

Exactly. The qualities of the RSW-15 in this environment take it in this one. The full, cushion, air-like, slightly lagging behind bass of the RSW-15 fills up the unfinished basement like you would want a sub to. The tight, accurate, natural sounding, musical bass of the Tuba somehow gets lost down there. Blending in so well is almost it's downfall in  this 'less than practical' listening room. The RSW-15 just 'works' for this situation.....and I really dig it. It's fun to listen to.

 

However, in a legit listening room with an established sweet spot and room treatments to boot the horn loaded sub is undeniably more accurate, natural, etc. etc. etc. In my room, my gear, my ears and on and on....

 

Now, to finally get my big *** 18" EV's down there and see what's up. :)

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Integration of horn or DR should be equally easy if measurement equipment is used. 

 

Not so Derreck, the The reason is the acoustic roll-off of a horn above the passband.

 

DRs don't have that, so there's a lot of above bandwidth harmonic content well into the midrange.

 

Even with a high order low pass filter a DR will still have a lot of harmonic content, especially at high volumes. The PK paper i linked to explains why.

 

Folded horn subs 'disappear' above the passband because they simply don't produce harmonics that go up into the directional frequencies.

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Ah, so this would explain my descriptions of how I'm hearing both types of subs.

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With today's moderns measurement systems with advance DSP there should be no difference in ease of setup of subwoofers.  It will practically do everything for you for a smooth integration with the mains and other speakers.  These programs have 1000's if not 10,000 of points at which integration is being done.  Additional tweaking is possible after initial setup.

 

If one is not using measurement gear, they most likely are not seeking high fidelity.  I can understand how that info was important in the old days.

Edited by derrickdj1

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