Jump to content
The Klipsch Audio Community
Sign in to follow this  
jason str

Why horns.

Recommended Posts

With today's moderns measurement systems with advance DSP there should be no difference in ease of setup of subwoofers.  It will practically do everything for you for a smooth integration with the mains and other speakers.  These programs have 1000's if not 10,000 of points at which integration is being done.  Additional tweaking is possible after initial setup.

 

If one is not using measurement gear, they most likely are not seeking high fidelity.

 

 

You can argue all you like but you cannot change proven facts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you saying that with the measurement equipment a direct radiating sub and a horn loaded sub will sound the same or that they would blend into the system equally?

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today's DSP and measurement gear is well proven and widely available.  I am not saying Horns and DR will sound the same but smooth integration into the system is not a problem.  Now, weather you like the sound of one over the other is personal choice.  Once again the gap between their sound and operational efficienty closes dramatically as box sizes approach the same size.

Edited by derrickdj1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today's DSP and measurement gear is well proven and widely available.

 

DSP is great but cannot "fix" something that is created after by the driver itself.

 

Just can't be done Derrick, period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is where DSP mainly works.  Do you use REW, DIRAC, Omninic?  As the thread states, this is why you like horn subs which is perfectly fine.  There is no superior design as far as I am concern and they all have pro's and con's.  It seems that some people what to claim that one is better than the next.  All the designs can deliver great performance in the proper application.  If one design was so great, the other would fade out of existence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is where DSP mainly works. 

 

False, DSP comes before the driver therefore cannot "fix" something created after.

 

Do you use REW, DIRAC, Omninic? 

 

No, but i could if i felt it was a necessity.

 

As the thread states, this is why you like horn subs which is perfectly fine.  There is no superior design as far as I am concern and they all have pro's and con's.  It seems that some people what to claim that one is better than the next.  All the designs can deliver great performance in the proper application.  If one design was so great, the other would fade out of existence.

 

Horns have not faded out of existence for a reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is no direct radiator subwoofer composed of a single driver cabinet that can beat one good horn loaded sub cabinet with the same size driver. Multiple DR cabinets can approach the performance of horns at the expense of more amplification. Still won't equal the horn in impulse response or modulation distortion (or lack thereof).
 

 

Impulse response is generally better with the direct radiating systems - especially sealed cabinets. This is because the frequency response is flatter (freuqency response and impulse response are really two views of the same thing). With enough radiating surface area you can achieve the same (or better) modulation distortion with a direct radiator. It's really hard to get a horn to have the same transparency at low levels (with all the folds and reflections and resonances along the way).

 

I'd suggest the hardest part about low frequency performance in a small room is the room acoustics. The dual zoned bass array is not only the best performing solution to that problem, but it's also the least invasive. Acoustic treatment takes up way more space and costs a lot more.

 

What you're gaining with direct radiating drivers is that the cabinet can be way smaller for the same low frequency extension. Sure, you gotta throw some power at it, but amplifier power is cheap and is not a directly audible parameter. You need several acoustic sources to achieve the results of a dual zoned bass array anyway. It's simply easier to accomplish with several smaller cabinets. No way I'm going to fit 8 bass horns in one small room - let alone have the flexibility to place them in the ideal location. Small cabinets are easy to place properly, and then there's the benefit of each one increasing the total radiating area. Eight 15" drivers is equivalent to a single 15" horn with an 8:1 compression ratio....and that 8:1 compression ratio horn is gonna need to be really long to reach down to 20Hz.

 

The numbers over at data-bass.com indicate that the direct radiating systems can certainly keep up with the horns....especially if you keep the total solution size as the constant variable.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lost just about all of my links & files due to hard drive problems but found this from the man himself.

 

 

attachicon.gifmodulation-distortion-in-loudspeakers-1-3.pdf

 

They didn't have Klippel back in the day when PWK put together that article....modern drivers are much more linear over a wider excursion range than they used to be. Much of PWK's measured results were demonstrating the lack of motor linearity in the older drivers. That's different than just straight up doppler distortion. The ironic thing is that fixing the driver linearity doesn't benefit the horn much because the horn itself starts limiting performance at the higher SPL's, and you don't notice any difference at the lower levels where everything is already linear...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent technical discussion, but let's just talk user experience for a moment.  Mine.  Most of the tech above supports what I hear.  A horn loaded sub with useable response to C0 matched to K'horns delivers the full acoustic range seamlessly.  The subs contribution is well into the non-directional range so those who don't recognize the huge center cabinet as a speaker never know it's there.  The power of a massive pipe organ comes across uncompromised and any issues are with the recording, not the system.

 

Further, that low end need not be loud.  Rather than attempt to describe what I hear, a metaphysically futile thing to attempt, I'll use simile.  A 32' wood bourdon pipe at low amplitude can deliver something like the magnificent aroma of a great whisky or fine cigar.  It has shades, depths, a woodiness. 

 

I've never heard a DR that can deliver that sort of detail...not saying there isn't one, I've just not heard it.

 

Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's this horn loaded sub you speak of Dave?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lil' Mikes Cinema F20.

 

That is  a DIY sub build with plenty of Ooomph!

 

I have buddy that has four 20 cu ft DR's and those things sound great with music and can dig deep.  A lot what has previously been discussed is not a true apples to apples comparison since the horn subs dwarf a lot of commercial DR sub based on box size..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The numbers over at data-bass.com indicate that the direct radiating systems can certainly keep up with the horns....
They also indicate that as of present, there haven't been enough production horns tested.

 

I'd like to see genuine representation from JBL, EAW, EV, Martin, Funktion-One, Klipsch, and Danley's DBH 218 on that list. Too much DIY.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We see plenty of A/B comparisons with speakers, how come we never see A/B comparisons (or shootouts) with subs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We see plenty of A/B comparisons with speakers, how come we never see A/B comparisons (or shootouts) with subs?

this is why I love the group of friends around the Kansas City area. They are into having a good time and taking placebo out of the equation. They have saved me money in some spots and made me wanna spend elsewhere. Good times

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1387178-archaea-s-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012-a.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We see plenty of A/B comparisons with speakers, how come we never see A/B comparisons (or shootouts) with subs?

Too many variables, like the human factor for one.

 

In regards to a shootout scenario, I'm in agreement with Derrick in that with adequate performance capability (primarily SPL & Total Distortion), the audible comparison become difficult to point out at best. Enough is usually enough....no matter how impressive.

 

The biggest differences being what it takes physically between designs to achieve "adequate" performance and complexity of setup.

 

Measure enough systems and the data will eventually show that performance envelopes exist for every design regardless of manufacturer, component group, or MSRP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The numbers over at data-bass.com indicate that the direct radiating systems can certainly keep up with the horns....
They also indicate that as of present, there haven't been enough production horns tested.

 

I'd like to see genuine representation from JBL, EAW, EV, Martin, Funktion-One, Klipsch, and Danley's DBH 218 on that list. Too much DIY.

 

 

This would be rather nice thing to have on a chart of some kind along with the Tuba 60 & Titan 48.

 

Also think of the money aspect, you want 4, eight or anything in between DR cabinets of whatever type you are spending multiple times more money at the vary least not to mention amplifier power.

 

We mention power is cheap yes but good sounding power does not come cheap and i don't want to something dull, hissy or lifeless.

 

2 of any model of these horns would more than fill a extra large room with destructive bass not only to your ears but the structure as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We mention power is cheap yes but good sounding power does not come cheap and i don't want to something dull, hissy or lifeless.
There's also the caveat of available wall power. Just because I can plug in the latest Lab Gruppen or Powersoft megawatt trophy amp, doesn't necessarily imply the full potential of the hardware is available.

 

Plenty of accounts of peoples' systems still falling prey to being current limited the hard way....tripping breakers if they haven't shelled out the coin for improved or dedicated circuits. Fun, fun.

 

Even my "meager" 300 watt system dims all the lights when it's first switched on.

 

Power is cheap, sure, but there are still practical limits.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...