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jason str

Why horns.

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With all the coins I see spent of these forum and the discussion is changing to the cost of power or electrical outlets.  A definite mute point.  A I Nuke 6000  can power 4  SI 18's.  Considering $400 for the amp, that works out to be $ 50 per sub.  There is the V.S.S.B. sub/mid bass module that 8 units can be run off a single I Nuke 3000.

 

Horn subs are great but, they are not the only way to put together a dynamite bass system.  This spring I will most likely one just for fun.  But, I doubt if my DR's will be going anywhere.The current Bass system is just to badazz, lol.

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We see plenty of A/B comparisons with speakers, how come we never see A/B comparisons (or shootouts) with subs?

Duhhh...did you see the size of my sub? 

 

Dave

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It would be only slightly more difficult to do A/B comparisons of listening spaces.

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There have been many sub shootouts on the AVS forum.  I have participated in a few and they are more difficult to pull off fairly to all the subs involved.  There have not been a wealth of shootouts with horn subs due to the logistic of getting them there and switched in and out appropriately.  With that said, the sub is the most interesting of all the speakers in the HT or 2 ch setup since it takes the most work to get it right, IMHO.

 

I love all the various types of subs and take the opportunity to experience as many bass systems as possible. Oh, and in my above statement, I did not mean to appear to blow off power management which is a vital part of the HT setup; it is not so critical for 2 ch setup.

 

A lot of what we are discussing is bass management of 2 ch or HT which is a great subject.

Edited by derrickdj1

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We see plenty of A/B comparisons with speakers, how come we never see A/B comparisons (or shootouts) with subs?

 

I have a couple big horns here to spar together if anybody is interested.

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I may be interested in hearing your horns Jason.  Maybe an area GTG with an empasis on bass systems. :)   Dave is welcome to come by first he has to negotiate out of the hills from West Virginia thru the plains of Ohio and Indiana, lol. :D

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I may be interested in hearing your horns Jason.  Maybe an area GTG with an empasis on bass systems. :)   Dave is welcome to come by first he has to negotiate out of the hills from West Virginia thru the plains of Ohio and Indiana, lol. :D

 

I won't be moving this THTLP around if i can help it but feel free to stop by anytime Derrick.

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I can understand Jason.  I may try for a GTG this spring and get some of the Chicago area AVS and Klipsch forum to participate.  It would be nice to have something that had several horn subs on display with some of the big DIY DR subs.  I will have to check and see if I have enough room for something like that, lol.  It would definitely be some fun!

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There have been many sub shootouts on the AVS forum. I have participated in a few and they are more difficult to pull off fairly to all the subs involved.

One of the biggest and baddest subwoofer shootouts occurs every year in Milwaukee, WI. It's called Summerfest.

 

No where else can someone experience such a wide variety of subwoofers in an environment free of small room acoustics and other common variables. From big name high-dollar, high-power touring rigs all the way down to Guitar Center rental units and DIY in the hands of weekend warriors....Driven by industry experts all the way to clueless, drunk roadies. You can hear and see it all...talk to the operators to get their opinions straight from the horses mouth of those that get paid for a living doing it.  Most of all, gain an appreciation for the power, response, and SPL's required for the variety of stages...from sidewalk performers all the way up to the huge amphitheater.

 

Highly recommended if you can make it up there. Bring an SPL meter, earplugs and an open mind. :emotion-21:

 

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerfest

Edited by Quiet_Hollow
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Even my "meager" 300 watt system dims all the lights when it's first switched on.

 

That's just the caps powering up.  Once they're charged the power consumption should drop.

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Even my "meager" 300 watt system dims all the lights when it's first switched on.

 

That's just the caps powering up.  Once they're charged the power consumption should drop.

 

I have 3 20 amp circuits available for my main system so it really doesn't matter what I run, that's not going to happen. 

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There have been many sub shootouts on the AVS forum. I have participated in a few and they are more difficult to pull off fairly to all the subs involved.

One of the biggest and baddest subwoofer shootouts occurs every year in Milwaukee, WI. It's called Summerfest.

 

No where else can someone experience such a wide variety of subwoofers in an environment free of small room acoustics and other common variables. From big name high-dollar, high-power touring rigs all the way down to Guitar Center rental units and DIY in the hands of weekend warriors....Driven by industry experts all the way to clueless, drunk roadies. You can hear and see it all...talk to the operators to get their opinions straight from the horses mouth of those that get paid for a living doing it.  Most of all, gain an appreciation for the power, response, and SPL's required for the variety of stages...from sidewalk performers all the way up to the huge amphitheater.

 

Highly recommended if you can make it up there. Bring an SPL meter, earplugs and an open mind. :emotion-21:

 

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerfest

 

 

I have been to Milwaukee's Summerfest, Cheap Trick was the headliner but lots of different stages are available.

 

All along the lakefront in Chicago too, not just Grant Park.

 

Some these Chicago block parties visibly shake windows 100's of feet away.

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Jason's gonna build me another THTLP 'slim'. Can't wait to experience the extra headroom.

 

 

I think I'm a little excited. :o

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The numbers over at data-bass.com indicate that the direct radiating systems can certainly keep up with the horns....
They also indicate that as of present, there haven't been enough production horns tested.

 

I'd like to see genuine representation from JBL, EAW, EV, Martin, Funktion-One, Klipsch, and Danley's DBH 218 on that list. Too much DIY.

 

 

That's totally a fair point, but some of these other subs have been measured in other places...some even provided by the manufacturers. It doesn't take too much work to derive an apples to apples comparison most of the time (sure there are always caveats to that). I just find it interesting that the pro audio world is almost entirely direct radiating for the subwoofer portion of the systems. And the better line arrays look less and less like multiple horns too - and more like multiple direct radiators.

 

I just wanted to point out that modern direct radiator design has come a long way. Granted, doppler distortion is a fixed entity for a given bandwidth and driver size - but it's not like this distortion magically goes away on a horn. It's just simply reduced by a lot. You can get that back by adding multiples.

 

Speaking of multiples....I totally hear the arguments about price and limited wall power, etc... Most of these subwoofer shootouts are obsessed about SPL capability, and they pick a lot of source material that rumbles your butt. I totally get the fun of that, and even play around with that on occasion, but for me it's more about sound quality. Just because your drivers can dissipate a crap ton of heat doesn't mean you need to use the fully capability of the system. I bring that up to emphasize that multiple driver solutions are all about improving the sound quality. The room modes are just an incredibly dominant acoustic effect and no amount of "better subwoofer" will ever overcome that. We need subwoofer solutions that are immune to room modes - and to my knowledge there is only one such approach. Ironically it's the least implemented.

 

The problem with talking about generalities is that not everyone enters with the same assumptions. This is why I like to focus on what would be the best of every world and use that in the comparison. Ultimately I'd posit that the best of the multiple direct radiator will outperform the best of the multiple horn setup. This is because horns of that size are part of the acoustic sound of the room - so now you've got all these caverns for the higher frequencies to bounce around in and make it sound like you're listening in a cave.

 

But since we're kicking around the crazy ideas....one thing I'd like to try is a bifurcated tapped horn with mouth exits at the ideal locations for a dual zoned bass array. This reduces the number of drivers you need, and the mouths are small so high frequency cavernous effects don't happen. The hard part is keeping the recipe of what makes the Othorn measure so different from all other tapped horns.

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We see plenty of A/B comparisons with speakers, how come we never see A/B comparisons (or shootouts) with subs?

Duhhh...did you see the size of my sub? 

 

Dave

 

 

You Texans and all your big trucks....do you ever put them to use? P

 

I've carried more system in my old FRS (a small sports car), and certainly more in my Subaru wagons over the years. Hurd came down one year from Canada with a sub that required removing the car doors to get in and out. Now that's dedication, haha.

 

:)

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This is because horns of that size are part of the acoustic sound of the room - so now you've got all these caverns for the higher frequencies to bounce around in and make it sound like you're listening in a cave.
Mike I'm gonna ask a question that's a little off-topic, but I'm interested in what you mean by this.

 

Could you have listen to some of the videos on my channel (through headphones of course) and tell me if you hear any of what you describe?

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/TerdFurg3zon

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This is because horns of that size are part of the acoustic sound of the room - so now you've got all these caverns for the higher frequencies to bounce around in and make it sound like you're listening in a cave.
Mike I'm gonna ask a question that's a little off-topic, but I'm interested in what you mean by this.

 

Could you have listen to some of the videos on my channel (through headphones of course) and tell me if you hear any of what you describe?

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/TerdFurg3zon

 

 

I'm talking about if one made a properly sized bass horn....it'd be huge and long and deep. It literally would look like a cavern. All of the Klipsch stuff is designed to couple to the room's corner so the mouth's are small and a small percentage of the room. They also aren't really "subwoofers". Everything would grow 4x to be a proper sub, and that's when it would matter.

 

So no, I don't hear it on your Youtube channel. :)

 

I do hear your room modes and some flutter echo from parallel surfaces though ;) Not to psych you out though because your recordings sound quite good as far as most room recordings I've heard. Were those mono recordings through a measurement mic?

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You Texans and all your big trucks....do you ever put them to use? P I've carried more system in my old FRS (a small sports car), and certainly more in my Subaru wagons over the years. Hurd came down one year from Canada with a sub that required removing the car doors to get in and out. Now that's dedication, haha.

 

Never had the big truck nor any use for one. As to car audio, no interest.  They can sound very, very good...but I have a listening room for that.  I'd be safer driving drunk than listening to the stuff I love on a top notch car system.  Talk about intoxicating and absolutely demanding one's total focus...that's what music does to me. 

 

Therefore, I'd need a designated driver if I had a first class car system.  Actually, one of our vehicles has a Fosgate system with sub that just happened to be in a used vehicle I caught a good deal on.  However, I listen to NPR pretty much exclusively for the reasons stated above. 

 

Dave

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So no, I don't hear it on your Youtube channel. :)

Cool. :emotion-21:

I do hear your room modes and some flutter echo from parallel surfaces though ;)

Indeed. Every video is an acoustic Easter egg hunt or case study. As you are quick to point out, none of my rooms have any acoustic treatment beyond carpet and plush furniture. :emotion-22:

 

I can point out everything wrong with the sound in every video I've shot and uploaded, but for the most part I wouldn't post it if it sounded absolutely terrible. I can usually avoid things first by monitoring during a take, but any clips that come off the camera and still leave any doubt during review, get tossed.

Were those mono recordings through a measurement mic?

At the moment I've only got two mono videos on my channel. The KP600 and AutoTuba ride along videos were shot with my iPhone and are in mono.

 

The rest are stereo...the majority of which were filmed with the stock mic on a GL1 camera.

 

I'm strongly considering outboard binaural mics as of late (if not outright selling the entire camera rig because of its age) because of the spacing of the GL1's stereo pair. I'm not sure if you can tell between the Galaxy and GL1 recorded videos, but the stock mic of the full size camera has a characteristically "pinched" sound that I'm not particularly fond of for indoor recordings.

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Sure, but most HT crowd just want the walls to shake and do not care that much for the quality of the bass and certainly the little woman wants the sub to disappear from sight. Certainly there a few audiophiles that want better but they are in the minority. Two channel listening audiophiles tend to want better not quantity.

 

Some men would prefer to have the woman disappear from sight. Divorce and man caves are two possible solutions. 

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