New Theater in an Old House

[spezjag]

So I have a small-ish townhouse built 75 years ago. I bought it almost 24 years ago. I like it and I like the location, and I have no plans of moving anytime soon. It has some quirks of older homes, especially in the basement that I want to convert into my home theater. Biggest among these is the low (80") ceiling height in the main room, with ceilings only three inches higher (83") in the smaller room and bathroom.

Now, while the house when it was first built was built well, when it converted from a rental community to a condominium in the late 70s, they really slapped in the "improvements." This is especially so in the basement where I want to locate the home theater. Dark paneling, nasty old glued-down carpeting, poor lighting and even poorer ventilation, all combine to make it such than one-third of my house was most unwelcoming. So much so, that for nearly the entire time I have lived there, I have essentially just used it for laundry and storage. I really wish I had taken pics before I began the demolition, as words cannot convey how dreary it was.

So here is a basic illustration of what I had:

What is shown is the standard floor plan for this model of town home; there are variations, as you would expect. For example, my unit is slightly rare in that it has two full-sized windows in the basement (lower) level, one in the "recreation room" and the other in the "den," that are shown in the following drawings. But from the standard floor plan, you can see a couple of things. First, the basement level is a little cramped, made more so by the decision to divide the space into two rooms, the "recreation room" and the "den" (which in my case counted as a bedroom, since it has a full-sized window to the outside). The location of the closet in the den really ate up some space.

Another thing that ate space was the decision during the condo conversion to build stud frames between 6" and 9" away from the block foundation walls. This allowed the builders to install dark 1970s-vintage wood paneling, and it gave them space to run wiring; the down side is that it ate up lots of space around the perimeter of both rooms.

So, after living in this place for so long, I finally got fed up with giving away 1/3 of my home to bad design and execution. I decided it was way past time to do something, so I contacted a couple of reputable builders in my area. One flaked out on me (and some other owners in the area) by failing to return calls after making promises to do so, failing to get me a detailed estimate after promising to do so, and generally weirding out. I dropped him after four months of being strung along (thankfully without having paid him any $$ yet - I would gladly have paid him a deposit, he just never gave me a number to do so). The other builder handed me an "estimate" that just had large numbers, without explaining how those numbers were reached. If he had not been so greedy, and made the numbers just a little smaller, I would have likely just gone along with his plan out of frustration at how hard it was to get anyone to provide me with a decent plan. Luckily for me, his numbers were so shockingly high that I decided to see what I could do on my own.

In the next illustration, I have attempted to show where I started. I did not illustrate the wall dividing the "recreation room" from the "den," or the closet in the den room, both of which are shown in the standard floor plan above. However, you can see the original location and layout of the bathroom, and the general dimensions of the room:

In the demolition, I removed the nasty old carpet, the paneling, and the frame walls supporting the old dark wood paneling, going all the way to the block foundation walls except where illustrated in the following drawings, when necessitated by electric or plumbing. So after the demolition, here is what I had:

It definitely helped me by doing the demolition myself, so I could learn how things were done and, more importantly, done incorrectly in the late-1970s conversion. One of the things I discovered was just how much lighter the space was after I removed the wall and closet dividing the old "recreation room" and the "den." I also discovered what a mess the electric set-up was - a real dog's breakfast. To test one of my ideas, in the bathroom, I stacked my (German) washer and dryer, ensuring that this would work in the final event; it did so with plenty of room to spare. This immediately opened up a bunch of space.

My first step after starting the demolition was to improve the ducts providing airflow to the space. I removed some ineffective ducts, and arranged to have new ducts made to better direct the airflow (in consultation with HVAC experts). I placed new ducts, one each, in the former "recreation room" and "den" spaces, as shown here:

Older ducts in the basement that were supplying the main floor were transformed into passive vents leading from the basement to the main floor in the living room and dining room - this has already made a huge difference in how much air moves through the basement and the main floor.

So based on what I have learned, here is my plan for what I want it to look like when I am done:

In the main theater area, you can see the center channel that will also serve as a base for the TV monitor, along with the La Scala L/R speakers. Greg Roberts (Volti Audio) heavily modified both for this purpose (more details in my other thread). You can also see where I will locate the Belle surround speakers on either side of the sofa / prime viewing location.

More to follow - with pics showing where the demolition led me to some new ideas. I'll open with my plan for upgrading the electric service to the area (I already have upgraded my electric panel, with room for separate 20 amp circuits supplying the sound system and video monitor).

Edited January 2, 2016 by spezjag

[Ceptorman]

Looks very good. If your attention to detail for the actual building process is anything like your detail in your diagrams, you're off to a great start.

It looks well thought out and should produce a very nice viewing area. You certainly utilized the space well. 

When remodeling a basement, moisture is usually the main concern.

Did you see evidence of any water damage while removing wall coverings or carpet? 

Will your walls and ceilings be drywall?

Good luck, pics are always nice to see.

[spezjag]

Looks very good. If your attention to detail for the actual building process is anything like your detail in your diagrams, you're off to a great start.

It looks well thought out and should produce a very nice viewing area. You certainly utilized the space well. 

When remodeling a basement, moisture is usually the main concern.

Did you see evidence of any water damage while removing wall coverings or carpet? 

Will your walls and ceilings be drywall?

Good luck, pics are always nice to see.

Thanks for the comments!

As to evidence of any water damage, about ten years ago, a supply pipe burst causing some water damage inside the basement, especially to the carpet (as if that needed any help in becoming even more gross), but there is absolutely no evidence of intrusion from the outside. However, to prevent any such intrusion in the future, I planned on applying "red seal" from Home Depot prior to finishing the walls.

The walls will get a layer of veneer brick (real brick, with real mortar, but less than half the thickness), with the corners, as shown in the diagram, getting floor to ceiling boxes of dual-layer drywall and green glue. The brick is designed to create the look of antique brick walls, and looks fabulous. At first I was going to drywall the ceiling throughout the entire basement, but when I began pulling sections down in the big room, I discovered that the joists in that room were in great shape (unlike in the small room and bathroom), and opening it up really mitigated the sense of how low the ceiling is. Additionally, the joists run perpendicular to the direction of the sound from the speakers, and I am thinking that for such a small room, this may act as sound treatment, trapping the sound waves and preventing it from being an echo chamber. My concerns are how to block sound intrusion from upstairs, as well as how to do the room lighting.

Again, thanks, I appreciate the input and feedback!

[Ceptorman]

Gary…sounds good. The lack of water penetration from the outside is a huge plus. I like the idea of brick on the walls, that's a very unique effect. I'm a masonry/decorative concrete contractor, and do a lot of thin masonry veneer. It can go anywhere, no footing support needed. 

 

I love these home improvement projects, and have dreamed up a few for my own home. It's a great source for ideas, so is Pinterest and Houzz.

 

In the past few years, I've done more stone veneer than brick, might be a geographic choice. Here's a pic of a stone firepit/waterfall I recently finished.

[spezjag]

Okay, as promised, here is the next step - What it looks like after the demolition, and how I go about figuring out the wiring for the new space.

 

Here are a series of shots before I dropped the drywall ceiling in the main room.  In the third and fourth pics, you can see the new ducts I installed to improve airflow into the space:

 

 

 

 

 

As you can see, I removed all the framing and have taken everything in this space back to the foundation block walls.  The space is fundamentally sound - the walls are solid, the floor is intact (if not quite level), the the space is relatively free from major compromises.

 

The existing wiring, however, as shown in the next series of pics, is a real mess, as I stated in my first post above.  These pics are in the bathroom and "den" space:

 

 

 

 

While all the wiring is proper clad copper, it's like they rushed through this project, and didn't care about how much wire they were using.  As I said to a friend, if they had taken a little extra time in planning up front, they could have saved themselves a bunch of money and come up with a better living space.  But that is not my problem, now, it's how to get the maximum use out of the space afforded to me.

 

I think based on the mess of wiring, my next step is to bring back the electricians to clean up the existing wiring.  I will then commence with some framing, then bring back the electricians for a third visit to complete their rough-ins.  More to follow in my next post.

Edited January 4, 2016 by spezjag

[spezjag]

Oops - I forgot to show you what the main room looks like now that I have pulled down the ceiling in that room.  as you can see, the wiring in this room is generally much cleaner (though I still want to re-do it completely).  Here I am looking along the staircase line from the front wall:

 

 

This is the same section, from the opposite view:

 

 

Here, I am looking from the front wall near the window along the wall into the former "den" space:

 

 

And here I am looking at the pile of drywall awaiting the next "big trash" day (early on Thursday morning in my neighborhood):

 

 

Smaller pieces go in boxes, big pieces get carried up the stairs and leaned against a street-side tree.  By the time i come home from work Thursday evening, it will all be a mere memory.

[Ceptorman]

Looks good Gary…..it's nice having a clean slate.

[spezjag]

Looks good Gary…..it's nice having a clean slate.

Thanks!  Having a clean palate has certainly made my planning easier!  I think a lot of folks in my neighborhood who have re-done their basements have simply covered over the previous mistakes, and so despite having spent a butt-load of money, all they really have is a nice veneer over the bad execution in plumbing and electric from the 1970s.  If for no other reason, doing it my way allowed me to clean a ton of dirt, debris, and other garbage from behind the wood paneling walls.  I would suspect that in my neighbors' homes, all that crap is still lurking back there.  Gross.

 

Speaking of electric, here is my plan for the electric supply going forward:

 

 

The blue outlets represent 110v, 15 amp outlets, using the standard gauge wiring; these are for things like lamps, vacuum cleaners, computers, phone chargers, etc.  The red outlets in the main room represent the discrete electric supply for the audio-video system, on two separate circuits, and are 110 volt, 20 amps, using 10 gauge wiring, with PS Audio hospital-grade outlets.  There will also be a separate 240 volt circuit for a two-zone radiant heat set-up that will go under the ceramic tile floor. 

 

I found some pics online of architectural renovation projects, of warehouses turned into loft apartments, that show how I want to run galvanized conduit pipes for those outlets, on top of the brick veneer, for a commercial/industrial look.  The outlet boxes for five of the six A/V outlets will be exposed on top of the brickwork.  It should look pretty cool.

Edited January 6, 2016 by spezjag

[spezjag]

Gary…sounds good. The lack of water penetration from the outside is a huge plus. I like the idea of brick on the walls, that's a very unique effect. I'm a masonry/decorative concrete contractor, and do a lot of thin masonry veneer. It can go anywhere, no footing support needed. 

 

I love these home improvement projects, and have dreamed up a few for my own home. It's a great source for ideas, so is Pinterest and Houzz.

 

In the past few years, I've done more stone veneer than brick, might be a geographic choice. Here's a pic of a stone firepit/waterfall I recently finished.

The company I am looking at for the brick veneer is called Eldorado Stone.  Most of what they offer is like you have done - creating the appearance of stone walls.  However, they also offer a line of veneer brick of various styles.  The one I like is called "Roma Brick," and is designed to look like warehouse-style brickwork.

[Ceptorman]

I looked and I like the Roma brick, especially with a tan mortar. It looks like a very old wall, they're long and thin, and will help you with the lower height of your basement. Don't use any oversize, king, or queen sized brick, they will make you walls look shorter. 

I like installing the thin veneer masonry. It's usually inside, and requires less material, but there is more labor involved than standard brick.

Will you apply it directly to the block walls? It would be MUCH cheaper that way. 

[spezjag]

Will you apply it directly to the block walls? It would be MUCH cheaper that way. 

Thanks for the feedback!

 

Like you note, my plan is to mount the brick directly onto the block wall - the block offers a really solid surface onto which to mount the mortar/veneer brick, and it also eats up less acreage in terms of remaining floor space.

[Coytee]

One comment about the wiring if I may.  Perhaps a bit over-board to boot (?)

 

When I did my basement, I had no idea what my exact end game would be and how changes in format might influence things.

 

I ended up running wires from my closet to each location.  I ran a PAIR of each:

 

12-g speaker wires

Cat-5 

Mogami for RCA connections

Mogami for XLR connections

 

At the center location, I ran an extra four pair of Cat 5 (not knowing if I'd need them for HDMI over CAT) I also got two 45' length HDMI cables that work their way back to the closet.  Fortunately, they work so I don't need the CAT-5

 

Of all that....what really seems to be the cats meow?

 

I put in four 20 amp circuits.  I was sick & tired of having 543,234 plugs daisy-chained into a single outlet with a bunch of power strips!!!

 

Now I can have the load spread out or if need be, on the same circuit.

 

ALL outlets (I honestly have something like 52 (honestly, I DID say it was a bit over-board!) receptacles spread around each location with the bulk of them in the closet.  Yes, like 104 individual outlets! EACH receptacle has a switched top outlet and an always hot bottom outlet.  Now I can switch some things on/off.

 

Over on the wall, above the room light switch, I have a bank of four more (20 amp) switches.  You walk into the room, hit all 4 switches on and you turn the whole system on.  When you leave to go to bed (or the wife leaves you napping on the couch) she can walk out, hit all four off and kill entire system.

 

Of everything I did, the switches seem to be what the wife appreciates the most.  She doesn't have to "figure things out" to turn them on or off.

 

I'd put more wires in than you think you will use.  Maybe someday, we'll talk you into slapping a K510 on top of your speakers and you'll want to biamp....  

[Coytee]

All the orange outlets are the "HT" circuits.  Had one up high in case I wanted to put a shelf above the K402 and set an amp up there.  I ended up putting the amp sideways on top of the Jubilee bass bin so the wife has some night lights in the high outlets.

 

Put some outlets up high on the left side of the closet.  I thought I might literally hang some amps from the ceiling.  They have short power cords....  so I put an outlet up high.  All uppers are switched and all lowers are hot.

 

Wife thought I went over-board and I can't argue.  It was however, interesting when her nephew was here and wanted to plug his Playstation to the system.

 

TV is across the room and the patch cords for sound are too short to go across room to inputs of system.

 

I plugged them into the wall to "back feed" them to the other side of the room where the closet is, and in there, plugged them into the preamp.  Worked like a charm.  Looking like it will be very flexible. 

[spezjag]

Coytee -

 

Thanks for the input!  I like the switch idea, as well as the doubling up.

 

Are those orange outlets the Synergistic Research Teslas?  If so, how do you like them?

[Coytee]

The outlets are extra's that my brother in law had left over (electrician).  I think they are hospital grade.  Got them for free!  I liked that they were orange so I could tell the wife "honey....nothing EVER goes into the orange, ok???!!)

 

She's actually stayed away from them.  They did however, almost bring her to tears with how ugly they are!

 

I've not told her they can be found in a gray color.....she'll want me to replace them all and I don't care to spend the funds to simply get a color change.

[akdave]

 

Looks very good. If your attention to detail for the actual building process is anything like your detail in your diagrams, you're off to a great start.

It looks well thought out and should produce a very nice viewing area. You certainly utilized the space well. 

When remodeling a basement, moisture is usually the main concern.

Did you see evidence of any water damage while removing wall coverings or carpet? 

Will your walls and ceilings be drywall?

Good luck, pics are always nice to see.

Thanks for the comments!

As to evidence of any water damage, about ten years ago, a supply pipe burst causing some water damage inside the basement, especially to the carpet (as if that needed any help in becoming even more gross), but there is absolutely no evidence of intrusion from the outside. However, to prevent any such intrusion in the future, I planned on applying "red seal" from Home Depot prior to finishing the walls.

The walls will get a layer of veneer brick (real brick, with real mortar, but less than half the thickness), with the corners, as shown in the diagram, getting floor to ceiling boxes of dual-layer drywall and green glue. The brick is designed to create the look of antique brick walls, and looks fabulous. At first I was going to drywall the ceiling throughout the entire basement, but when I began pulling sections down in the big room, I discovered that the joists in that room were in great shape (unlike in the small room and bathroom), and opening it up really mitigated the sense of how low the ceiling is. Additionally, the joists run perpendicular to the direction of the sound from the speakers, and I am thinking that for such a small room, this may act as sound treatment, trapping the sound waves and preventing it from being an echo chamber. My concerns are how to block sound intrusion from upstairs, as well as how to do the room lighting.

Again, thanks, I appreciate the input and feedback!

 

If I understand correctly, it sounds like you're thinking of leaving the joists exposed in the ceiling.  They do look good, but that sound will bleed through like a sieve.  As much as it may pain you, I would encourage you to go ahead and "spend the space" on the ceiling and double wall + green glue, you may even run a track perpendicular to the joists to separate the drywall and give another key break.

 

Bass will still be your biggest sound escapee - but it should help out a lot.  Depending on the family situation, sound bleed may not be that big a deal.  Run a portable radio and go upstairs and hear how much bleed through you get.  Then imagine the sound escape of the big setup.

 

Not to hijack at all, but I posted some pics of my ceiling here. 

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/145598-addition-theater-room-sound-insulation/page-2

 

Still not done either, but happy with the progress! 

 

Good luck!  It looks like you are going to have a wonderful new room on your hands!  Congrats!

 

[spezjag]

She's actually stayed away from them. They did however, almost bring her to tears with how ugly they are!

I've not told her they can be found in a gray color.....she'll want me to replace them all and I don't care to spend the funds to simply get a color change.

You, sir, are a genius.

Never change. I salute you!

Edited January 5, 2016 by spezjag

[spezjag]

Looks very good. If your attention to detail for the actual building process is anything like your detail in your diagrams, you're off to a great start.

It looks well thought out and should produce a very nice viewing area. You certainly utilized the space well.

When remodeling a basement, moisture is usually the main concern.

Did you see evidence of any water damage while removing wall coverings or carpet?

Will your walls and ceilings be drywall?

Good luck, pics are always nice to see.

Thanks for the comments!

As to evidence of any water damage, about ten years ago, a supply pipe burst causing some water damage inside the basement, especially to the carpet (as if that needed any help in becoming even more gross), but there is absolutely no evidence of intrusion from the outside. However, to prevent any such intrusion in the future, I planned on applying "red seal" from Home Depot prior to finishing the walls.

The walls will get a layer of veneer brick (real brick, with real mortar, but less than half the thickness), with the corners, as shown in the diagram, getting floor to ceiling boxes of dual-layer drywall and green glue. The brick is designed to create the look of antique brick walls, and looks fabulous. At first I was going to drywall the ceiling throughout the entire basement, but when I began pulling sections down in the big room, I discovered that the joists in that room were in great shape (unlike in the small room and bathroom), and opening it up really mitigated the sense of how low the ceiling is. Additionally, the joists run perpendicular to the direction of the sound from the speakers, and I am thinking that for such a small room, this may act as sound treatment, trapping the sound waves and preventing it from being an echo chamber. My concerns are how to block sound intrusion from upstairs, as well as how to do the room lighting.

Again, thanks, I appreciate the input and feedback!

If I understand correctly, it sounds like you're thinking of leaving the joists exposed in the ceiling. They do look good, but that sound will bleed through like a sieve. As much as it may pain you, I would encourage you to go ahead and "spend the space" on the ceiling and double wall + green glue, you may even run a track perpendicular to the joists to separate the drywall and give another key break.

Bass will still be your biggest sound escapee - but it should help out a lot. Depending on the family situation, sound bleed may not be that big a deal. Run a portable radio and go upstairs and hear how much bleed through you get. Then imagine the sound escape of the big setup.

Not to hijack at all, but I posted some pics of my ceiling here.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/145598-addition-theater-room-sound-insulation/page-2

Still not done either, but happy with the progress!

Good luck! It looks like you are going to have a wonderful new room on your hands! Congrats!

Thanks for the link! I appreciate the feedback.

I am a bachelor, and intend on remaining one, so bleed is not much of an issue. However, I gave some thought to sealing the boards between the joists with Duratex or a similar material. I will give your comments serious thought, though. From your link, it is not clear how high your ceilings are; are they less than 8' high?

Edited January 5, 2016 by spezjag

[akdave]

No they're 8' - I should have included that.  If you're a bachelor - you may prefer the exposed beams indeed.  I have little ones who I want to shelter a bit from my noise and I figure when they're teenagers, I will want some shelter from their noise! 

 

I'm excited to see how your space turns out!  It will be so much more fun than laundry and storage! 

[spezjag]

Okay, so all the ceiling debris has been hauled to the curb and whisked away by the County.  I am at one of those points where I am wondering what to do next.  Here are my possible courses of action for the weekend:

 

(1) The existing wiring is such a mess that I am thinking that I should bring back the electricians (who installed the new panel shown in the pics), to clean up the existing wiring.  I see the wiring clean up as a necessary precursor to not only installing the new wiring (per the diagram above), but this would also allow me to begin framing:

 

- the wall between the small "den" and the bath/laundry room,

 

- the boxes around the new air ducts, and

 

- the wall next to the stairs for the sliding door.

 

(2) I also need to clean all that nasty old rubber padding and adhesive from the old carpet.  This is a necessary precursor to leveling the floor, prior to installation of the radiant heating elements and tile.

 

I have ordered the sliding door hardware as well as the bypass door hardware for the cedar closet in the small room (johnsonhardware.com).  As I want not only solid, heavy doors, but also the benefit of the ball bearing rollers for that hardware, I sprung for the heaviest-duty kits they offered.

 

Decision: My sense is that I can begin the removal of the floor padding/adhesive without entailing any additional purchases this weekend - I have the adhesive remover (made by a company called Henry's) that is easy to mix with water in a bucket and applied to the floor.  This will allow me to then prepare for the next step, leveling the floor, which I think I should do before begining the framing work described above.  This schedule will also allow me to schedule the electricians to come back at a time convenient to me (hopefully on MLK Day on Monday, the 18th, when I have a day off from work).

 

More pics to follow!

Edited January 8, 2016 by spezjag