mungkiman Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I like the Stephens Trusonic P103LX2 Do you have one that we could compare too? Roger I wish. Just a pair of the P103LX at the moment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) Larry, Did you consult Bob Crites or one of the other cross over gurus about this? Even better would to be to use your tube setup on the highs and quire Roy as to horn time delays for the bass bin and at least bi-amp if not tri amp and add delay into the top end. Just thinking out loud here, but wondering of your thoughts on this? Roger Hi -- No, I did this in the days before I knew about all the resources available along these lines. I consulted extensively with D-Man (Dana), who was very knowledgeable concerning the bass horn and throat. He didn't bring up any x-over issues or people to work with. Frankly, two added reasons not to pursue it were a strong EMI field near or from the woofers that propagated a very loud 60-Hz hum from the bass horn, and an imbalance between the heavy bass and smoother midrange from the mid-horn. I dropped it at that point because it was becoming too much for me to figure out. Perhaps in retrospect I should have kept asking questions. I guess I wasn't sure whom to ask, and I couldn't figure out how to defeat that hum. But I don 't understand how the 1960 K's didn't have that hum. Edited January 2, 2016 by LarryC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I like the Stephens Trusonic P103LX2 Do you have one that we could compare too? Roger I wish. Just a pair of the P103LX at the moment... Bummer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Larry, Did you consult Bob Crites or one of the other cross over gurus about this? Even better would to be to use your tube setup on the highs and quire Roy as to horn time delays for the bass bin and at least bi-amp if not tri amp and add delay into the top end. Just thinking out loud here, but wondering of your thoughts on this? Roger Hi -- No, I did this in the days before I knew about all the resources available along these lines. I consulted extensively with D-Man (Dana), who was very knowledgeable concerning the bass horn and throat. He didn't bring up any x-over issues or people to work with. Frankly, two added reasons not to pursue it were a strong EMI field near or from the woofers that propagated a very loud 60-Hz hum from the bass horn, and an imbalance between the heavy bass and smoother midrange from the mid-horn. I dropped it at that point because it was becoming too much for me to figure out. Perhaps in retrospect I should have kept asking questions. I guess I wasn't sure whom to ask, and I couldn't figure out how to defeat that hum. But I don 't understand how the 1960 K's didn't have that hum. Larry, Perhaps it is time for you to revisit this now that you have more time on your hands A visit to Hope in May, with unobstructed access to Roy would be a good place to start??? Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Larry, Perhaps it is time for you to revisit this now that you have more time on your hands A visit to Hope in May, with unobstructed access to Roy would be a good place to start??? Roger This was several years ago, and I sold the 15 WK's some time ago. I haven't been to Hope in some time and won't make it that soon. Wish I could do that, and help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 K-43 works as well but much depends on what you want from your system. I am not replacing any woofers I am just looking for info. I have 64 Khorns with K-33-J woofers in them. I thought that I had read somewhere that they were the best that Klipsch had used so I was just trying to confirm that. Thanks for the replies. I'd leave well enough alone. I've not researched myself but also heard that some guys prefer the Jensens (That's what the J stands for - you'll also see the numbers P15LL inked on the outer edge of the basket if they're like my 63 CW woofies). Do you also have chrome K77's in there? M 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davis419b Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 K-43 works as well but much depends on what you want from your system. I am not replacing any woofers I am just looking for info. I have 64 Khorns with K-33-J woofers in them. I thought that I had read somewhere that they were the best that Klipsch had used so I was just trying to confirm that. Thanks for the replies. I'd leave well enough alone. I've not researched myself but also heard that some guys prefer the Jensens (That's what the J stands for - you'll also see the numbers P15LL inked on the outer edge of the basket if they're like my 63 CW woofies). Do you also have chrome K77's in there? M These do not have the chrome K77's they are round magnet K77's. I have a set of the chrome K77's in my stash. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 NO! It is not the K-33E, nor is it the Crites Woofer, not even close! I used to own well over 30 Klipsch 15" woofers, and my brother in law who also owns Klipschorns and I spent a day swapping out woofer and playing the bass bin only,, and playing the whole speaker to cross reference all the woofers I had. The woofers I had on hand to try out were as follows: K-33E round magnet, K-33E square magnet, Crites cast frame woofer, K-43E woofer, Klipsch K-44E woofer, K-46E woofer, and the Electro Voice EV 15W-K. All of the above speakers are OEM 15 inch drivers for Klipsch Horn loaded products except for Bob Crites driver. The K-43E is used in Pro LaScalas and MWM bins and is rated at 200 watts RMS. The K-44E is used in later production TSCM Pro Klipschorn bins and is rated at 250 Watts RMS. The K-46E woofer came in the KP-600 Low Frequency horn and is rated at 300 Watts RMS. The clear winner by an blatently obvious margin was my Electro Voice EV 15W-K. It should be noted that my Electro Voice EV 15W-Ks are the earlier 1950s versions with the Huge Alnico magnets. I have heard that these Alnico versions sound better than the ones made in the 1960s with the ceramic magnet and bow tie in polished aluminum on the cast aluminum cover over that magnet, but I cannot confirm this as I have never had the chance to do an A/B comparison. I have also been told that the Stevens True Sonic Woofer sounds even better than my Electro Voices, but the only ones I have ever actually seen in person are in the Museum and also the basement of the museum in Hope. There is also some old model train track in that basement as well, kind of a tribute to Paul there. So I have never actually heard let alone had a chance to do a comparison with a Stevens woofer. These were my findings, and my brother in laws as well, as we both agree that it was an obvious difference in both Bass increase at lower listening levels and quality/clearness of the sound. So, that's my story and I'm stickin to it! ... Roger I had a 15WK at one time and my results were different. When used with a bass bin with the 3 inch wide throat and a type A xover, performance was poor with thin, weak bass. The woofer I had came with the motorboard mounted to it, with the original 6 inch wide throat. The EV bass cabinet design that was used with that woofer had a smaller back chamber than current (as of late 1960s) Khorn bass cabinets, and were crossed at 250 Hz IIRC. This woofer would be necessary to restore a Klipsch-licensed EV Georgian horn, not the best match for the newer Klipschorns. It is most definitely the best looking woofer I have seen with the cast polished baskets and huge magnet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) See https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/159219-khorn-bass-bin-vs-jubilee-bass-bin/?hl=allied#entry1922143 At frame 7 for the Allied catalog on the 15WK. Edited January 2, 2016 by WMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) The force factor of the WK is about the same as the current K33E, 12T-m. Looking at the plot below I show the free-air, Z-magnitude response of a 27 year old K33E sq. mag driver that has been in constant use and a NIB K33E round mag driver. They both have the same cone assy (pn 451520-2) but the suspension compliance on the old sq. unit is much, much higher which can account, entirely, for the lower Fs shown in the plot (a quick push on the dust cap glue line confirms this observation pretty convincingly). The force factor for the old sq. is about 11.8 and the new rd. about 12.1T-m. The plot also shows what happens to the Z-mag when two drivers are operating in the Klipschorn bass unit. The large impedance peaks seen in the free-air response "shrink" and become closer. What causes this is the combined effects of the compliance of the volume of air contained within the rear chamber against the back side of the cone and the horn throat air mass against the front side of the cone. Combined, they form a sort of tank circuit that dominates the response of the horn. So fairly significant differences in the driver parameters become second order effects when installed in the horn. The dashed ellipse is the radiation resistance. This is where the sensitivity of the driver is enhanced by the horn. This is also the peak output of the Klipschorn bass unit. As you can see, not much difference between the two drivers. On the high end, it runs out of gas around 300Hz. Below 50Hz, the throat reactance kicks in. If you want more bass you need to push the onset of throat reactance lower than 50Hz. The air load in the throat is a mass (capacitive, -j Ohms) and can be cancelled by the compliance of the air in the rear chamber (inductive, +j Ohms) leaving just a real part of the impedance. This is the basis of reactance annulling, to "annul" the capacitive reactance of the air load in the throat by the inductive reactance of the air volume behind the driver cone. So to determine if the WK enhances the low end response we need to see the Z-mag plot and determine if the radiation part of the output goes lower than what's possible with a K33E. Given that the driver effects are secondary in this regard, chances are it's not doing much. On the high end, as Edgar realized in his rubber throat study, anything resembling enhanced output at the high end (say above 300Hz) is less to do with the horn and more to do with what "reflections" manage to escape after bouncing thru the folds of the horn. This is something that the driver can effect since the horn is no longer effective. Edited January 2, 2016 by John Warren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 What was the best 15" woofer used in the Khorns ? I'd say the best woofer used was the E-V 15WK, but that isn't necessarily the best woofer for the bass horn. For that I'd say it would be one of the later K-33s. We need to remember that the early, much rarer EV 15W-K has an Alnico magnet structure. Not only is Alnico a much stronger magnet by weight than Ceramic Magnets, but the early Alnico magnets are HUGE, and far out weigh the later ceramic magnets. The speaker industry switched to ceramic as rare earth magnet material became more scarce and to pricey to use, ............ I cannot begin to believe that the strength of these two magnets is anywhere close to the same figures for both units............................................... Roger Roger, This is mostly true. And, initially, the ceramic motors were not as powerful. As R&D progressed, the voice coil magnetic flux density of the ceramic motors surpassed AlNiCo and for several decades, ceramic magnet drivers have been more powerful than AlNiCo ever were. Now, AlNiCo and other Rare Earth motors are only used where space or weight considerations are paramount. Ever carried an HIP? Compared it to a similarly sized new JBL (with neo magnets)? Roadies love the new JBLs; no hernias! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) The force factor of the WK is about the same as the current K33E, 12T-m........................................ On the high end, as Edgar realized in his rubber throat study, anything resembling enhanced output at the high end (say above 300Hz) is less to do with the horn and more to do with what "reflections" manage to escape after bouncing thru the folds of the horn. This is something that the driver can effect since the horn is no longer effective. Great data, John! This must be the reason one of Eminence's modern woofers is said to increase the lower midrange response of a Belle and La Scala. Perhaps it would in a K-horn, but I can't recall if it's been tested here. Edited January 2, 2016 by John Albright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davis419b Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 Just for the hell of it I decided to look in my 54 Khorn and check out the woofer ! Wow its the EV 15W-K . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 NO! It is not the K-33E, nor is it the Crites Woofer, not even close! I used to own well over 30 Klipsch 15" woofers, and my brother in law who also owns Klipschorns and I spent a day swapping out woofer and playing the bass bin only,, and playing the whole speaker to cross reference all the woofers I had. The woofers I had on hand to try out were as follows: K-33E round magnet, K-33E square magnet, Crites cast frame woofer, K-43E woofer, Klipsch K-44E woofer, K-46E woofer, and the Electro Voice EV 15W-K. All of the above speakers are OEM 15 inch drivers for Klipsch Horn loaded products except for Bob Crites driver. The K-43E is used in Pro LaScalas and MWM bins and is rated at 200 watts RMS. The K-44E is used in later production TSCM Pro Klipschorn bins and is rated at 250 Watts RMS. The K-46E woofer came in the KP-600 Low Frequency horn and is rated at 300 Watts RMS. The clear winner by an blatently obvious margin was my Electro Voice EV 15W-K. It should be noted that my Electro Voice EV 15W-Ks are the earlier 1950s versions with the Huge Alnico magnets. I have heard that these Alnico versions sound better than the ones made in the 1960s with the ceramic magnet and bow tie in polished aluminum on the cast aluminum cover over that magnet, but I cannot confirm this as I have never had the chance to do an A/B comparison. I have also been told that the Stevens True Sonic Woofer sounds even better than my Electro Voices, but the only ones I have ever actually seen in person are in the Museum and also the basement of the museum in Hope. There is also some old model train track in that basement as well, kind of a tribute to Paul there. So I have never actually heard let alone had a chance to do a comparison with a Stevens woofer. These were my findings, and my brother in laws as well, as we both agree that it was an obvious difference in both Bass increase at lower listening levels and quality/clearness of the sound. So, that's my story and I'm stickin to it! ... Roger I had a 15WK at one time and my results were different. When used with a bass bin with the 3 inch wide throat and a type A xover, performance was poor with thin, weak bass. The woofer I had came with the motorboard mounted to it, with the original 6 inch wide throat. The EV bass cabinet design that was used with that woofer had a smaller back chamber than current (as of late 1960s) Khorn bass cabinets, and were crossed at 250 Hz IIRC. This woofer would be necessary to restore a Klipsch-licensed EV Georgian horn, not the best match for the newer Klipschorns. It is most definitely the best looking woofer I have seen with the cast polished baskets and huge magnet. "Cast Polished basket???" Which style EV 15W-K did you have, and with what magnet structure? The Early 1950s Alnico has a HUGE magnet structure and the cast basket is not only polished, but also Chrome Plated! Even the Early Ceramic magnet EV 15W-Ks had Chrome plated baskets with a thin cast aluminum shell over the ceramic magnet structure was painted copper with a polished aluminum bow tie. It was even later after that when they stopped chroming the baskets! Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) Just for the hell of it I decided to look in my 54 Khorn and check out the woofer ! Wow its the EV 15W-K . AND.... Those are the early HUGE alnico magnet motors as well! Those are exactly what I have a pair of and are worth a lot more cash than any of the K series drivers. Still would like to A/B against the Stevens True Sonic and Jensen woofers to have a better idea of how all the Early drivers stack up? If you ever take those woofers out of there, they are major heavy beasts Roger Edited January 2, 2016 by twistedcrankcammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davis419b Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 Just for the hell of it I decided to look in my 54 Khorn and check out the woofer ! Wow its the EV 15W-K . AND.... Those are the early HUGE alnico magnet motors as well! Those are exactly what I have a pair of and are worth a lot more cash than any of the K series drivers. Still would like to A/B against the Stevens True Sonic and Jensen woofers to have a better idea of how all the Early drivers stack up? If you ever take those woofers out of there, they are major heavy beasts Roger I dought I will ever take it out. They look heavy as I noticed they were held in with angle iron instead of wood like they were in later years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Just for the hell of it I decided to look in my 54 Khorn and check out the woofer ! Wow its the EV 15W-K . Have they ever been out? If not, it's amazing the condition they're in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davis419b Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 Just for the hell of it I decided to look in my 54 Khorn and check out the woofer ! Wow its the EV 15W-K . Have they ever been out? If not, it's amazing the condition they're in. I bought it from the original owner and it has never been out. As far as I know this is the first time the wood panel has even been off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) That EV 15W woofer is beautiful. I miss the days when I could send a check to EV at 600 Cecil St., Buchanan, MI to get a T35 diaphragm or one of those. Edited January 2, 2016 by DizRotus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davis419b Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) This is what it looked like the day I brought it home. I have looked for years to find a mate but I don't think it will ever happen. Edited January 2, 2016 by davis419b 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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