Jim Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 I'm contemplating making a move to a MC cartridge and have read a few posts on people who have this cartridge. I am using a few different cartridges on my 2 tables (Dual 1229, 701) right now and wanted to know about this one. I have a Stanton 681EEE with the Jico 680EEE Shibata, Ortofon VMS30EII MK, Ortofon OM40, and Pickering XV-15 with the 1200 stylus. I've been told the Denon is a high output cartridge so it wouldn't need the SUT for it. I've also been told it has a similar characteristic of some of the AT carts and of Japanese branded that are somewhat "flat" or neutral. Others have said it sounds much better than the Ortofon's as they tend to be brighter. Anyone have any opinions on the Denon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marting Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 I haven't had any of the carts you mention so I can't compare the sound but I had one before I moved up to a DL-103R (and head amp). I liked the DL-160 a lot and it worked well with the moving magnet phone stage I was using then. It has been discontinued though so you will likely have to look on the used market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted January 7, 2016 Author Share Posted January 7, 2016 I haven't had any of the carts you mention so I can't compare the sound but I had one before I moved up to a DL-103R (and head amp). I liked the DL-160 a lot and it worked well with the moving magnet phone stage I was using then. It has been discontinued though so you will likely have to look on the used market. There's several NOS ones on the bay. Don't know though if it's worth doing or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krispy Kirk Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Someone with more knowledge of Denon product lines can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the DL-110 is now Denon's current entry-level high output moving coil cartridge ("HOMC"). When comparing the specs (virtually identical), the cartridge body design/shape (only visible difference is color), and msrp (a few tens of dollars' difference), I can see why Denon discontinued the DL-160. Why market two products that would compete directly with each other? So that's my theory: the DL-110 superseded the DL-160. That said, I enjoy both of my DL-110-equipped turntables. Both are Pro-Jects: an RPM 1.3 "Genie" and a 2Xperience "Classic". The former came equipped with a Sumiko "Pearl" MM and the latter came equipped with a Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 HOMC. Upgrading to the DL-110 made an immediate improvement to each turntable in similar ways: less perceived surface noise, smoother less "granular" midrange, less bloat and tubbiness in the bass, cleaner treble, and better soundstaging. The DL-110 also seems to track better at a slightly lower tracking force (1.8 grams) than either of the Sumikos. Considering that the DL-110 is priced almost exactly halfway between these two Sumikos (@$250 versus $120 & $450) I think it's instructive to point out that money itself didn't necessarily buy me better sound here. Both Sumikos do certain things well but, to my ears, the Denon DL-110 is the more complete package for average turntables in the $500 to $1500 range. Phono pre-amps used included a Pro-Ject Phono Box, an NAD 1300 preamplifier, and a Vincent twin-chassis PHO-8. So if you have $250 lying around and you're curious about entry level Denon HOMC cartridges, then the DL-110 is the cartridge you'll want to check out. Personally, I don't think anything else can touch it for under $500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krispy Kirk Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Here's an old review of the DL-110 that sheds a bit of light on the 110/160 backstory. It's also very favorable to the DL-110 (despite a few glaring typos and some questionable equipment pairings in the reviewer's system). http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue15/denondl110.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 Here's an old review of the DL-110 that sheds a bit of light on the 110/160 backstory. It's also very favorable to the DL-110 (despite a few glaring typos and some questionable equipment pairings in the reviewer's system). http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue15/denondl110.htm Good read on this, just purchased it.Worst case I don't like it,I can return it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 So the Denon came in today, and I just hooked it up to my Dual 701. Hopefully it sounds better than my other MM Carts after break in. What are you tracking yours at Krispy Kirk ? I'm starting at 1.8 grams. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krispy Kirk Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 1.8 is a great place to start. I've gone all the way up to 2.0 grams with a few "problem" records but you run the risk of bottoming out the cart with that much downforce loaded on it. Can't wait to hear your opinion of my favorite sub-half-kilobuck MC cart! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted January 14, 2016 Author Share Posted January 14, 2016 Gonna play as much music as I can in order to break it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krispy Kirk Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 I've found the DL110 to be a particular quick cartridge to break-in. Whereas my Sumikos took close to 100 hours to settle down and sound their best, my two Denons got there in about 20-30 hours. They sounded pretty close to their best right out of the box. *On a separate note, your signature mentions an "Audiosource 100 watt amp". What model do you have and what are you using it for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 I've found the DL110 to be a particular quick cartridge to break-in. Whereas my Sumikos took close to 100 hours to settle down and sound their best, my two Denons got there in about 20-30 hours. They sounded pretty close to their best right out of the box. *On a separate note, your signature mentions an "Audiosource 100 watt amp". What model do you have and what are you using it for? The Audiosource (amp 100) is used for my "wides" in my living room set up which is 9.2. My receiver does 7 channels,and can do 9 with an external amp. So I picked this up on the cheap.It has an A/B switch and does the job fairly well. It can be used with components hooked directly into it. I'm noticing so far that the Denon is much more laid back than any of the other cartridges I use so far. I've probably put about 12 hours on it so far. I'm also using it on a Cambridge Audio 551P. The guy who recommended the cartridge to me uses the 651P and uses it on both outputs and said the MC side actually plays a little louder and sounds differently than with the MM side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krispy Kirk Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I prefer the MC setting on my Vincent PHO-8 for most music since it sends a "bigger" sound with more "slam" to my amp. The DL110 is totally fine with the MM setting and I use it for more quiet and detailed music. But when I want to rock out, I need the extra 20dB of gain that the MC setting delivers. Full disclosure: my amp, a Response Audio Bella EXtreme 3205 Platinum (same amp as in the link except with knobs on the front), is technically not an integrated amp at all. It's a power amp with a passive line stage in front and has no preamplification. I suspect the input stage of my amp is happiest with the extra voltage provided by MC outputs on phono preamps. This is my main rig I'm talking about. In my second rig I run a different DL110-equipped turntable directly into the MM phono inputs of an NAD 1300 preamp and when I switch to MC, it's a bit too much and the music grows a halo of distortion that is none too flattering. The great thing about a HOMC like the DL110 is that you can run it either as an MM or MC depending on what sounds best to you and your gear. I like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 So after using it for 6 days and a good 50-60 records, it seems a little too laid back for me. My Ortofon VMS 30E MKII sounds better to me, along with the Ortofon OM40. It does have better mids than my Stanton 681EEE, but lacks in bass and highs against the Stanton. So I think I'm going to return this,unless someone wants to purchase it. I paid $175.00 new, so I'd let it go for that with shipping included. Otherwise it will be shipped back to where I got it from over in Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krispy Kirk Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 I'm sorry to hear that Jim. Here I was hoping we'd picked you a winner. "Too laid back" huh? I guess that's a positive for many of us - especially Klipsch owners - since our systems tend to push everything right out into our faces. Couple a "forward" sounding speaker like Klipsch with aggressive solid state amplification and I cry "Uncle!" Invariably, "laid back" is exactly what I'm looking for in my source components, that and some tubes sprinkled here and there. But that's just me. I don't suppose it would help if I told you that this cartridge was rather sensitive to VTA adjustments, huh? If you like to keep your arm perfectly parallel to the deck, the DL-110 tracks this as if your VTA was "tail up" slightly (or at least it sounds this way). Every arm I've mounted a DL-110 to has benefited from a few degrees reduction to a slightly "tail down" VTA. This fattens up the sound nicely and brings a "bloom" to the presentation that is very flattering to what is, otherwise, a very neutral-sounding cartridge. Too much and things get closed-in and dead sounding. It helps if your tonearm pillar lets you adjust VTA on the fly... But then I went back and researched your turntable and two preferred cartridges and realized you a running a vintage vinyl rig. My hat's off to you for sticking with the old stuff but maybe you should just stash the Denon away for that day if/when you buy a modern turntable. If I were lucky enough to own a Dual 701, I'd score a Shure V15 for it! (or at least a Shure M97xE in a pinch) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krispy Kirk Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Anybody reading this needs to be aware that Jim's offered price of $175 is approximately 30% off what this great cartridge normally sells for here in the US. Jim's ideal customer would be anyone with a mid- to lower end Rega, Music Hall, or Pro-Ject turntable who is ready for something different than the usual Ortofons or Sumikos that usually come mounted on sub-kilobuck turntables from the factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 I've been toying with trying the Shure and getting the SAS stylus from Jico. I just redid the weight on the Stanton 681EEE and it sounds better than the Ortofon does now. I was tracking at 1.5 grams and just lowered it to .85 grams and with the shibata stylus it sounds so much better now. The stylus also must have broken in a little better as well. There's no shrill sound coming from it at high listening levels and it has opened up even more than it was when tracking heavier. I had also purchased a Stanton 881S with the original stylus, and that even lacks against the 681EEE with the Jico shibata. I know the 881 is supposed to be a better cart, but it lacks against that Jico. When I got my 701 and 1229 done, they were done by a guy who only does Dual tables out of Iowa, and he recommended the 681 with the Jico Shibata against almost every other cartridge that people have used, except the Grado Reference. He even said the 681 would sound better then the 881. So I tried it out and at 1st wasn't thrilled, but since it has opened up, have been liking it more. With the Ortofon carts I have, they are nice, but the bass lacks slightly against the Stanton. I'm still going to play with the Ortofon's weights and see what I can come up with. I'm also looking at potentially doing another MC cart. Maybe a low output. Or a Clearaudio performer v2 Ebony. Someone recommended it saying it was a good cartridge. The Denon was already sent back to Japan, and I'm also getting ready to send this Stanton 881S back as well. I purchased it with a 14 day return policy, so it's not a loss either. I have a friend who just purchased a VPI table new, and an AR table. I'm going to do an A/B test with them and my Duals. I just hope I don't get caught up in chasing a sound I can't get instead of just enjoying things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krispy Kirk Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I was offered an original AR turntable in working condition for $150 this past weekend. I turned it down even though I know what a legendary device it is. The guy selling it runs a Linn LP12 Sondek in his (all Quad) main rig and said the only reason he had it priced so low was because of cosmetics. I'd love to get it and restore it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkane Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I'm running a 103r on a Pioneer PL 630 and It's far from laid back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted February 2, 2016 Author Share Posted February 2, 2016 I was offered an original AR turntable in working condition for $150 this past weekend. I turned it down even though I know what a legendary device it is. The guy selling it runs a Linn LP12 Sondek in his (all Quad) main rig and said the only reason he had it priced so low was because of cosmetics. I'd love to get it and restore it... So I A/B'd the tables and my 1229 was the same as the AR, the 701 outperformed it though. I used the same carts on both tables, cables, phono pre, weight, amp,and records (Breakfast In America I have doubles in it). I was surprised a little as the AR is an ES-1. Everyone clamors about AR, so I thought it was going to outperform the Duals. Good for me. I took his AR and lubed and cleaned it up before doing anything. If you do get the AR, there's two guys online that do custom plinths, both do a lot of AR plinths and from pictures show excellent workmanship. One runs about $250, the other $50.00 to start. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkane Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) Edited February 3, 2016 by mkane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.