A K-402-Based Full-Range Multiple-Entry Horn

[Chris A]

So Mark, did you and jwc get to hear any Danley Synergies...set up well?

 

Ref:

Chris

[Chris A]

I just got the Xilica XP-8080 installed and dialed in a few minutes ago. 

 

"Whoo boy..."

 

I'll write about the process I used...in a day or so..after I listen to my new system for a while. 

 

(EDIT 13-Nov-2016) A link to that thread:

and a link to a related thread on using REW to optimize the parametric equalization filters for digital crossovers:

 

Chris

[Don Richard]

Can you detect any audible difference between the Xilica and the Yamaha processor so far?

[Chris A]

Yes.  But I cheated: I've got ~50% more filters/channel that had available to flatten everything out more.  So I can't really separate that from the basic fidelity of the two units. 

 

I also learned how to use REW's equalizer function much better.  It allowed me to dial everything in about an hour using completely new settings (from scratch) for each channel.  That same exercise took me six weeks of fairly hard work when I started in the fall of 2014.  Now it takes about an hour for all five surround channels.  I no longer have to crawl around on the floor hand-typing in the new settings and doing "trial and error" on the PEQ settings.

 

Chris

[Cantilope]

 

I am painting mine today.

 

Joe

[Marvel]

Beautiful, Joe... certainly wouldn't be embarrased to have that in my living room.

 

Bruce

[Chris A]

On 11/12/2016 at 10:34 AM, Don Richard said:

Can you detect any audible difference between the Xilica and the Yamaha processor so far?

 

So I realized that I really didn't answer your question in a quantitative way...so here's my real answer: if I only needed two inputs and six outputs, I'd accept either one (Yamaha SP2060 or Xilica XP-3060/4080/8080 models).  Cost will be the major difference in my opinion--not really sonic performance.  Since I never got the Yamaha PC application to run (Ethernet only), I'd find the Xilica easier to program.

 

However...the Yamaha SP2060 has an AES/EBU input that would be very nice to use (preamp digital AES/EBU output to Yamaha digital input).  I've not found an economical AVP that has AES/EBU outputs, however.  The prices are currently stratospheric for those AVPs (about $10K). 

 

The Xilica XD series also has AES/EBU inputs and also FIR filter support, but the price pretty much doubles:  http://xilica.com/products/xd/

 

 

 

 

[Chris A]

The phase curve of the MEH says to me that I don't need FIR filtering.  For horn-loading all the way and conventional IIR filtering, that phase curve is pretty spectacular. (The FR dip at 178 Hz is front wall and floor bounce where the microphone was placed: it didn't occur in my measurements outside, or in the measurements on the floor mid-wall or in the corner):

 

 

That phase curve above using K-69-A (P.Audio) compression driver covers about half the phase growth of the Jubilees on either side with TAD TD-4002s.

 

Chris

[Cantilope]

21 hours ago, Marvel said:

Beautiful, Joe... certainly wouldn't be embarrased to have that in my living room.

 

Bruce

 

Thank you for the kind words.  Just an FYI, the KPT-305 is an excellent solution, however, it will not accommodate the TAD and its adapter.  That is the only reason I built my own.  I also shaved 1" off the top and bottom of the K402 to allow it to fit under my screen.  This horn has been chopped and frenched as they'd say in shop class.

 

I used Rustoleums high performance semi gloss black paint reduced 50% with xylene through my HVLP spray gun.  I removed all of the original paint from the K402 and repainted (the hardest part of this project).   I like my color better than the black from klipsch, I might paint the Jube K402 Horns to match.  It is a deeper, less gray black.

 

Joe

[Don Richard]

Thanks for the info on the processors. I was curious about the Xilicas, but you don't hear as much about them as other brands. What I did hear of them was good, nice to get confirmation.

[Khornukopia]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 0:12 PM, Cantilope said:

 

 

I am painting mine today.

 

Your paint job and the light and shadows in your picture make that horn look attractive. It will be interesting to read more of your thoughts about the speaker and how it sounds.

[Schu]

 

[Chris A]

And...?

[ClaudeJ1]

18 minutes ago, Chris A said:

And...?

What does that photo posted by Schu have to do with a Unity Summation Aperture horn in a K402, I have no clue. Waste of bandwidth and the Email I got about it's post.

Lucy, you got some splainin' to do!!

 

[Marvel]

Those are multiple entry horns as well...but meant for huge outdoor events. I used to have a link to their web site.

[CECAA850]

1 hour ago, Marvel said:

Those are multiple entry horns as well...but meant for huge outdoor events. I used to have a link to their web site.

They were enormous as I recall.

[Chris A]

4 hours ago, Marvel said:

Those are multiple entry horns as well...but meant for huge outdoor events...

If we're at a point where we can step back and look at the lay of the land...here's what I currently see from my knothole:

 

Basically all of the ongoing multiple entry horn (MEH) DIY work is on smaller horns that lose their pattern control around 500 Hz, e.g.,

 

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/285030-bookshelf-multi-way-point-source-horn.html

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/291160-my-synergy-corner-horn-bass-bins.html, and

http://www.hificircuit.com/community/threads/index-of-diy-synergy-and-unity-horns.23/.

 

Additionally, these efforts haven't discovered the benefits of using 2" output compression drivers: they all still use 1" drivers. Some are still trying to wedge in midrange drivers like DSL Synergies that are meant for outdoor stadium use (i.e., extremely high SPL that requires separate midrange drivers). 

 

But these are not the best choices that they can make.  There are remaining problems using direct-radiating woofers--and most are vented bass reflex designs (having their own issues sonically integrating with those smaller MEH horns).  Most of those small horn designs are completely ignoring those issues.  And the "small loudspeaker crowd" generally wants to believe that smaller loudspeakers are "just as good" and "a better fit for their rooms". 

 

In reality, however, the K-402-MEH performs better than any smaller loudspeaker array in very small rooms. Just like Roy mentioned elsewhere--small rooms actually require large mouth horns to keep the early reflections off the nearfield walls.  The sonic benefits of using a single horn full-range K-402-MEH in a cabinet that's about the size of a La Scala II are noteworthy.  They don't require a separate woofer or horn-loaded bass bin, and their bass extension is that of a Jubilee bass bin--and arguably cleaner than the Jub bass bin.

 

And those same K-402-MEHs can fill very large home theater rooms without breaking a sweat...

 

Chris

[Dkfan9]

12 hours ago, Schu said:

 

Is that a giant wood phase plug?

[ClaudeJ1]

19 hours ago, Chris A said:

Additionally, these efforts haven't discovered the benefits of using 2" output compression drivers: they all still use 1" drivers. Some are still trying to wedge in midrange drivers like DSL Synergies that are meant for outdoor stadium use (i.e., extremely high SPL that requires separate midrange drivers). 

While I agree with 99 percent of what you have to say, I only ask that you actually HEAR the Danley Designs you are emulating. Tom has been using the same quad of sealed midrange drivers in his flagship products at the Sound Physics Labs and Danley Sound Labs for over 16 years for a good reason.

 

In total, I have owned 22 horns using those drivers in a 3 way configuration. I still have 10 in my possesion with 6 in my HT system, downshifted to 2 for music. The vocal clarity that I get from those drivers is unmatched by anything I have ever tried except for the Klipsh K1133 driver in a K402. Both produced "spooky real" vocals as described by impartial listeners.

 

Having 100 to 103/watt efficiency with a linear power handling of 27 dbWatts (IOW, stupid loud) still has great sonic benefit at a measly 86 db SPL at my living room sweet spot.

[ClaudeJ1]

I should add that some of the "small" horns you speak of are about 800 square inches at the mouth vs. about 1,000 for a K42. At least that is true of the Danley SH-50, which I own.

 

I would characterize all of Klipsch's midrange horns to be "small" with the exception of the K-402. Yes????