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A K-402-Based Full-Range Multiple-Entry Horn


Chris A

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I'm not discounting the sound of Danley Synergies or SPL's older Unity horn designs. 

 

I was saying that for DIYers, adding a midrange between an apex-mounted 1" compression driver, and then adding woofers is tricky, time consuming, and requires real skill at building custom crossovers (assuming you're now thinking passive crossovers--but I use actives--mostly). 

 

Trying to use midrange cone drivers on a Synergy-like DIY horn is also is completely unnecessary for home use, and probably results in poorer sound if not done extremely well (DIY).  Danley (the man) has spent lots of hours on these Synergy designs optimizing passive crossovers in order to sell to the outside PA sound community.  That isn't what I'd call "DIY". 

 

For home use and DIY, using 2" compression drivers (even dual-diaphragm or coaxial drivers) makes a lot more sense since the SPL for home applications are MUCH lower than PA.  You also see this in Danley Sound Lab's stage monitors and other lower SPL products (i.e., coaxial drivers - with a metal or polyester diaphragm compression driver core and a surrounding paper cone). 

 

5 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I would characterize all of Klipsch's midrange horns to be "small" with the exception of the K-402. Yes????

That is what I was implying.   I assume that over time Klipsch will develop more horns that are of the K-402 variety rather than the exponential or even tractrix (unmodified) variety.  If sonic performance is the objective--there isn't much that can compete with this approach.  And they are definitely better sounding than folded horn bass bins (again, IMHO).  Horns with big mouths can control their polars, and this is a big deal in terms of the sound that you hear.

 

The K-402 just happens to be a big enough horn in order to enable the results discussed in this thread: a full range multiple-entry horn that requires no separate bass bin.  The advantages for home hi-fi audio are quite apparent when you listen to them.

 

Chris

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20 hours ago, Chris A said:

That is what I was implying.   I assume that over time Klipsch will develop more horns that are of the K-402 variety rather than the exponential or even tractrix (unmodified) variety.  If sonic performance is the objective--there isn't much that can compete with this approach.  And they are definitely better sounding than folded horn bass bins (again, IMHO).  Horns with big mouths can control their polars, and this is a big deal in terms of the sound that you hear.

 

The K-402 just happens to be a big enough horn in order to enable the results discussed in this thread: a full range multiple-entry horn that requires no separate bass bin.  The advantages for home hi-fi audio are quite apparent when you listen to them.

I have been listening to multiple entry horns for over 2 years now and it would be very difficult for me to ever go back to separate horns with all of their constraints in a home theater or stereo. 

 

I have always said "the bigger the horn, the better the horn." I sold my Khorns 9 years ago and started working with "big stacks."  There was certainly an advantage to fewer folds with MWM woofer sections. I have been trying to "shrink the stack" ever since, including my Quarter Pie MWM derivative design, which people are enjoying in several continents.

 

With Tom Danley's multiple entry horn designs, it's a true paradigm shift. He was the first one to do it successfully, along with his Tapped Horn designs. I met Tom a few months back at a speaker design competition (he was one of the Judges) and he's a very down to earth fellow. He's basically a DIY guy who has some unique approaches to solving acoustic transducer problems, but mostly for stadiums and large venues like the Disney World's Star Wars display. 

 

That being said, the old SPL TD-1's, patented in 2000, are a sealed version of the current flagship SH-50's (ported Synergy Horn), whose original prototype pair, Tom still has at home as his reference system. All of his other larger and smaller products are scaled up or down derivatives from that, depending on the application. The same is true for the amazing TH-50 Tapped Horn subs were designed to complement the SH-50 and to extend bass to below 20 Hz. From 2012 until this year. lack of driver availability halted production. There were 3 TH-50 prototypes built originally Tom still has two of them and I own the third, along with TWO of the production version. The SPUDS that you built, Chris, are a "skinny derivation" of those prototypes.

 

I find his approaches to be superior to all other traditional approaches. They improve the integrity of sound reproduction while using the same large midrange sized horn for the woofer and tweeter sectons in the 3 way system. Since Roy Delgado was able to make the K-402 as the finest midrange/tweeter horn in the world, then adapted to midbass use for Theaters, it's only fitting that a guy like you had the knowledge and the guts to cut one up and make a full range speaker out of it.

 

I think your 2-way approach is a great adaptation of these methods and making full use of modern digital crossovers to tweak the curves as necessary is a great step towards simplified sonic Nirvana. While I live too far at the moment to simply come over and hear it for myself, by living with Danley designs every day, I concur with all of your conclusion about the sound quality. Carry on!!

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Tom D. certainly has made a large impact on the DIY community and I think on the larger hi-fi community.  The current lack of "prettiness" is apparently only attracting those who listen with their ears--instead of their eyes.  I believe that it's quite unfortunate that the audiophile community is overpopulated with the latter type.

 

I think the basic MEH configuration is more conducive to esthetic design than other loudspeaker configurations. For instance a rendering from some time ago, below.  The vertical-to-horizontal dimensions of the loudspeakers are certainly not right--in fact they're inverted 90 degrees for the dimensions and layout of room shown...but you get the drift:

 

32.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Follow up and review of the K402 MEH.

 

After a few weeks and many hours of use, I would like to solidify that I believe this to be an awesome and amazing speaker.  It is painted, and being used and it just plain rocks.  I won't pretend to even understand any of the measurements and what not provided within this thread, but I will say, with my ears, I prefer this MEH over my KLF-30's, KLF-C7, Cornwalls, and even the Belles.  Absolutely a winner.  If you have the ability to craft this, you will not be disappointed.  Amazing soundstage, flat response, and low power requirements, what more could you ask for.  Build this!  2 of these and a horn loaded sub and you'd never leave your listening chair.

 

I want to also note that I have am now using the TAD 4002 as I had originally planned.  If you ever have the opportunity to hear the TAD in a center configuration to create human voices from a movie soundtrack, take it.  There is not a better driver in my very humble opinion, and after 20 years my search for finest center channel, is now over.

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I concur with your enthusiastic conclusion. This is why I currently listen to Danley designed and build Unity Summation Apterture/Synergy Horns for stereo music (2) or 6 for Surround Sound Movies and concerts. Both supported below 80 Hz. by 2 Danley designed/influenced Tapped Horn Subwoofers, with two more downstairs waiting to be plugged in and tweaked.

 

It's also the reason why I retain two Klipsch K402's with TAD drivers, and why I'll be joining your ranks at creating all the necessary modifications to create similar builds and compare with the originals to see if they can be bettered. While I have my doubts about this, I'm willing to put my time and money there to bring me one step closer the sonic Nirvana.

 

Congratulations on your success. It's hard for me to leave my sweet spot to go outside and play, so to speak, so I totally get the motivation behind your post, Mr. Cantilope.

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Forgive me if this has been answered previously, but I've lost track of this 28-page thread; does Klipsch even sell K402 horns separately, and how much do they cost?

 

Or is there a secret handshake, known only to non-mortals, required to obtain them?

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2 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Forgive me if this has been answered previously, but I've lost track of this 28-page thread; does Klipsch even sell K402 horns separately, and how much do they cost?

 

Or is there a secret handshake, known only to non-mortals, required to obtain them?

The cheapest way to get them is used, usually with Klipsch built drivers, or new with K-69's, which are Klipsch labeled from a Taiwanese copy of a B&C driver. I know of no one who ever got just the horns without drivers. I have owned 4 used ones, all with Klipsch made drivers.

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PWK used other's suggestions to name his speakers, e.g., the Klipschorn, the Cornwall, the Heresy, the La Scala, etc. 

 

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4 hours ago, Chris A said:

PWK used other's suggestions to name his speakers, e.g., the Klipschorn, the Cornwall, the Heresy, the La Scala, etc. 

 

The Klipschorn came from one of his early dealers in the Northeast, I believe. The Cornwall was because you could use it in a corner (preferred) or against a wall, which it was as a center channel in the brochures before Paul decided the I.M. distortion was too high, so the all horn (for lower bass distortion) Belle and LaScala became the preferred center, which I had since I was 23 years old until 2007. The LaScala was named after an opera theater in Italy, I believe, and the "pretty" version of it was named after Paul's first wife Belle. The Heresy is something Paul was told it was because it wasn't a corner speaker when he designed it as a center channel between two Khorns, initially. The Heresy was the best selling speaker and actually saved the company from bankruptcy. So basically, all of the non-Klipshorn speakers were relegated to mono Center duty at first before being sold in pairs as Stereo became more mainstream in America.

 

BTW, Paul seldom ever smiled, but I got a big grin out of him in 1985 (Jim Hunter was there too)  when I pointed out/recognized the fact  that he had created a 4th order electrical filter equivalent analysis for bass reflex when he published his paper on the Cornwall in 1957 fully 4 years ahead of Neville Thiele's famous Bass Reflex paper, which wasn't published in the AES Journal until 1971. So PWK was 14 years ahead of the rest of the world on woofer/cabinet analysis. The fact that he was able to do with the same exact woofer as the Khorn is a testimonial to his skill at using available components and lowering the cost by way of production volume.

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14 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

So basically, all of the non-Klipschorn speakers were relegated to mono Center duty at first before being sold in pairs as Stereo became more mainstream in America.

 

This fact wasn't lost on me.  :emotion-55:  The Cornwall followed the Heresy design as a center between two Klipschorns.   The La Scala/Belle succeeded it and were both much more successful in matching the timbre and low bass modulation distortion of the Klipschorn.

 

The same design philosophy applies to the K-402-MEH ("Allhorn").  If you want to place this horn in the middle of a wall, next to the floor or ceiling, or in a corner--you can instantly change the configuration EQ settings to the appropriate room loading case.

 

Chris

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We didn't get as far as I had hoped, but we have the horn sides mounted into the box permanently so far with the woofers also mounted. Next weekend we will hopefully get the top and bottom angles of the horn made, sides trimmed flush, external horn flare, and maybe wired.

Rear shot:

20161127_151508_zpsnuybvf0y.jpg

 

Front shot:

20161127_151530_zpsif0eszgm.jpg

 

Ports cut:

20161127_132213_zpsyn3ocrav.jpg

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