A K-402-Based Full-Range Multiple-Entry Horn

[Chris A]

Seriously? That's all it costs? Who's the vendor?

 

Actually $285, allegedly... see https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/161495-you-were-all-right-about-the-tads-and-the-402/page-2#entry1972141

[PrestonTom]

 

Seriously? That's all it costs? Who's the vendor?

 

Actually $285, allegedly... see https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/161495-you-were-all-right-about-the-tads-and-the-402/page-2#entry1972141

 

It would be a great deal .... but i am skeptical about this. 

[ClaudeJ1]

 

I will try 4-12's instead of two 15's, more than likely.

 

Here is a similar project  using 4 x 8 in "woofers" in each.  I looks like this design is working its magic!

 

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/17/171026.html

 

 

And lastly the sound:

I can't actually overstate this: The tonal balance of a well designed mini-monitor, the dynamics of a well designed horn, immediacy of an electrostatic and the ease of listening of the absolute best full rangers. Add to that headphone like pinpoint imaging without the "in your head soundtrack" (or hot ears) problem....and you start to get the idea. 

I've been to many a CES show, and dealer...and home...heard everything from some of the big boy JBL studio speakers, Wilson Grand Slam on Halcro, Sonus Faber Amati on VTL Wotan, Focal Utopia. on Audio Research..etc. The Synergy horn isn't going to back down from any of them. I've never actually heard the real deal, but I've "known" Tom online for almost 20 years dating back to the days when I ran "The Basslist" off of servers at UT. The concept is stunning in it's brilliance, it took me years to figure out what was going on. Once I saw the problems solved, directivity, time alignment, distortion reduction, wavefront divergence...I set out to design mine. I went through 5 major prototype revisions and countless minor revisions...

And it was worth it. I still chuckle often at the thought of: That's in my house.

-Scott 

Scott Hinson

speakerscott.tumblr.com

www.etsy.com/shop/SpeakerScott

 

His quote just about sums it all up for me, and I have the real thing.====CJ

Edited January 23, 2016 by ClaudeJ1

[ClaudeJ1]

Even on youtube these things don't sound like regular speakers, they seem very focused over a fairly large area, like a mega point source studio monitor, with microdynamics that are insane.... I need a pair!

Yes you do.

[Chris A]

Looks like it will work nicely.  Let us know how it goes if you proceed.

 

Chris

[ClaudeJ1]

 

At $298 (US) for a K-402 horn, it seems to me...

 

 

Seriously? That's all it costs? Who's the vendor? I may pick one up next week. If the walls are as flat as you say, then I have some ideas on how to cut one set of "holes" in the horn and experiment with multiple driver / port entry configurations. For some reason I thought they'd be $1500 each.

 

I'm with you Chris - the K402 horn is the major differentiator here.

 

I only want to get down to 80Hz in my application since I have a subwoofer for the bottom two octaves. I have a pair of 12" NDL76 drivers laying around that I'll probably start with. Attached is a simulation with ported versus sealed rear chamber.

 

This might turn out to be pretty sweet. Heck you would almost use a 1" driver with a proper adapter in the 402. My Danleys have a BMS 4550's and they have a superb high end.

s 

Edited January 24, 2016 by ClaudeJ1

[Axz Hout]

c

[Chris A]

I can't actually overstate this:

 

1) the tonal balance of a well designed mini-monitor,

2) the dynamics of a well designed horn,

3) immediacy of an electrostatic,

4) the ease of listening of the absolute best full rangers, and

5) headphone like pinpoint imaging without the "in your head soundtrack" (or hot ears) problem

 

...and you start to get the idea.

 

Extracting customer needs from statements such as the above is something of value, I've found. The above 5 statements can parsed into the following loudspeaker/reproduction system factors:

 

1) Tonal balance, a.k.a., openness, warmness, nasality, sharpness, darkness, etc., is a function of at least three characteristics of loudspeakers in-room vs. your listening position:

 

a. direct SPL frequency response flatness--measured on-axis,

b. the relative off-axis frequency SPLs that get reflected off walls. i.e., how well the speakers hold their "polars" with increased listening angle. and

c. the absence of early off-axis reflections relative to the direct sound coming from the horns/drivers,

d. good coverage of the listener's room such that the listener can move about and still hear the same tonal characteristics.

 

2) Dynamics are a function of the absence of power compression at each loudspeaker "way" (a driver/horn combination in the case of horn-loaded), and relative freedom from modulation distortion products that make the sound opaque.

 

3) "Immediacy" implies:

 

a. phase coherence (i.e., low group delays vs. frequency) and

b. point-source behavior, with all frequencies from the different speaker "ways" emanating within 1/4 wavelength of each other,

c. very low mass effects in the drivers that reveal "micro-detail", and

d. very low modulation distortion levels that make the sound "transparent"

 

4) "Ease of listening" implies the absence of the following typical loudspeaker characteristics:

 

a. resonances

b. uneven frequency response on-axis and off

c. modulation distortion due to moving mass effects, and

e. higher order harmonic distortions that cause the sound to be "harsh", including steady (linear) harmonics and transient (impulse) behaviors

f. poor loudspeaker coverage of the listening room, implying the inability to move about and still hear the same characteristics

 

5) Headphone-like pinpoint imaging w/o "in your head" imaging implies:

 

a. good directionality (i.e., very high direct/reflection sound ratio)

b. very low modulation distortion (to increase transparency)

c. matched driver characteristics (stereo or multichannel) that minimize "image wandering" vs. frequency

d. the absence of early in-room reflections laterally/height, either off the loudspeaker cabinets themselves or the walls/ceiling/floor

e. very low crossover disturbances between ways in terms of FR, polar lobing, implying less than 1/4 wavelength separation between drivers/horn mouths

f. low cross-channel effects (stereo or multichannel) and proper physical separation of loudspeaker channels in-room to approximate the location of the recording microphone positions (this also implies not using multi-track recordings that destroy imaging granularity.

 

Now that these 5 simple customer need statements are at least partially decomposed into their constituent factors that together create each effect, perhaps it's easier to understand listener testimonials on well-implemented multiple-entry horn systems.

 

Chris

Edited February 12, 2016 by Chris A

[tromprof]

 

 

Seriously? That's all it costs? Who's the vendor?

 

Actually $285, allegedly... see https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/161495-you-were-all-right-about-the-tads-and-the-402/page-2#entry1972141

 

It would be a great deal .... but i am skeptical about this. 

 

 

I guess its time to start saving some pennies.

[ClaudeJ1]

Now that these 5 simple customer need statements are at least partially decomposed into their constituent factors that together create each effect, perhaps it's easier to understand listener testimonials on well-implemented multiple-entry horn systems.   Chris

 

Nice breakdown, Chris. I agree. It's what we have all wanted all along. The ROOM is still the biggest factor to make it happen after the speaker meets all the above. 

[Chris A]

I think everyone has seen Dick Burwen's system. He has 2 x 24 inch drivers in the sidewalls of his L & R horn channels. Could this be the Granddaddy of point source design?

 

This is unclear from the photo, but I see the point that you're trying to make.  Those woofers are loading the side-walls of the conical expansion horns, but they are several feet away from the horn throats--which makes the low pass frequency of those woofers in-room quite low--probably below 40 Hz--and only on one wall/horn (i.e., not symmetrically arranged on each side of the horn). 

 

Chris

[Chris A]

I guess its time to start saving some pennies.

I've seen the pent-up demand for a while for Jubilee-like performance but at a much lower price point.  Additionally, there seems to be a significant DIY crowd if the price gets low enough. 

 

I think that we're there with the current New Center design approach--if the horns can be had for a low-enough price, and the skills of the DIYers is up to the task-assuming that you're talking rock-bottom price.  If those that don't want to do it themselves but have a little more cash in-hand, there is the possibility of that happening to.  The price of a new Cornwall III is $2200(US) and a LSII is $4000(US), EACH...just a little perspective.

 

DSL Synergy products are still way too high in price (probably by a factor of three or more), and it's even more difficult to hear them in a home hi-fi environment than Jubilees or even Klipsch Heritage in terms of geographic distribution. 

 

Chris

Edited January 24, 2016 by Chris A

[ClaudeJ1]

 

I think everyone has seen Dick Burwen's system. He has 2 x 24 inch drivers in the sidewalls of his L & R horn channels. Could this be the Granddaddy of point source design?

 

This is unclear from the photo, but I see the point that you're trying to make.  Those woofers are loading the side-walls of the conical expansion horns, but they are several feet away from the horn throats--which makes the low pass frequency of those woofers in-room quite low--probably below 40 Hz--and only on one wall/horn (i.e., not symmetrically arranged on each side of the horn). 

 

Chris

 

The woofers in the side walls are SUBwoofers. The woofer is all the way back to the throat area. I used to work with a fellow engineer and friend of Dick Burwen. He told me the guy was a flippin' genius in designing servos. Audio was another field of electronics he was successful in doing as a highly paid consultant.

[jason str]

 

 

I will try 4-12's instead of two 15's, more than likely.

 

Here is a similar project  using 4 x 8 in "woofers" in each.  I looks like this design is working its magic!

 

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/17/171026.html

 

 

 

 

 

What a great looking room.

 

Wondering if these loudspeakers may be better a bit higher off the floor.

[Chris A]

On 1/24/2016 at 10:57 AM, jason str said:

Wondering if these loudspeakers may be better a bit higher off the floor.

 

Which loudspeakers?  If you are talking about the New Center design, you can see their FR while sitting on top of a bar stool base (27 1/2" tall), outside, away from the walls, using the EQ that I use in-room...here:

 

 

[NBPK402]

Well, the design parameters include crossing at ~300 Hz to the woofer, and it's a 60 x 60 degree dual-conical flare horn, so those guesses were good.

 

At $298 (US) for a K-402 horn, it seems to me...

 

...But what do I know...?

 

Chris

Is that all it costs for the horn? 

Edited January 24, 2016 by ellisr63

[jason str]

I was referring to the ones in the picture but they do look similar to the one you are working on.

 

Exactly how big are the 402 horns ?

 

The set i heard was placed on top of Jubilee bass bins and they just looked huge.

 

Chris, how would you describe the sonic differences in layman's terms between the Jubilee's and your ongoing project ?

[Chris A]

Exactly how big are the 402 horns ?

 

The horns in the boxes are 41 x 27 x 23 (inches) - about the size of a La Scala II on its side.

 

EDIT (4 March 2015): I found a picture of a K-402 upright next to a La Scala-I that Turbox posted.  One of the advantages of this New Center box is that it is already slanted to aim upwards toward the listeners while resting on the floor:

 

 

Chris, how would you describe the sonic differences in layman's terms between the Jubilee's and your ongoing project ?

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/161404-a-k-402-based-full-range-multiple-entry-horn/?p=1968414

 

Chris

Edited March 4, 2016 by Chris A

[jason str]

 

Exactly how big are the 402 horns ?

 

The horns in the boxes are 41 x 27 x 23 (inches) - about the size of a La Scala II on its side.

 

Chris, how would you describe the sonic differences in layman's terms between the Jubilee's and your ongoing project ?

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/161404-a-k-402-based-full-range-multiple-entry-horn/?p=1968414

 

Chris

 

 

Thank you for posting that link.

 

Sounds as though you may impressed enough to replace the mains with your newly designed loudspeaker.

 

Wish i was closer as i love to hear new stuff, especially good new stuff.

[Khornukopia]

I was looking at the picture of the backside of the K-402 horn in post #5 of the Corner-Horn Imaging FAQ thread, and as I re-read the explanation about collapsing polars I wondered if there is a link to an illustration showing the differences of this effect between something like the K-400 and the K-402.