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A K-402-Based Full-Range Multiple-Entry Horn


Chris A

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49 minutes ago, Tarheel TJ said:

Chris,

   I seem to remember that at one point you were working on an MEH kit were you not?  I believe you were talking about something that could get a similar result without having to cut holes in a K-402.  Is that still in the works? 

Yes. The horn would not be a K-402--but much heavier--about 2x to 3x heavier than the present K-402.  This represents a much stiffer horn than the stock K-402 to accommodate the woofers and significantly reduce flexing...and also having off-axis ports in the side walls for the woofers that are similar to the prototype that I've described here. There may be other differences.  Crawl before walking or running, as the saying goes.

 

Again, they will not be K-402s.  My intent to produce five of them for my own needs.  Anything after that--is lagniappe.

 

By the way, the approximately 6 months of doing trades on the crossover settings for the DSP crossovers (which the MEHs will all have--without exception) have yielded some interesting results. The home version of the Jubilee (two-way) can be dialed in to have a slightly flatter phase curve vs. frequency than that of a Danley SH-50 (shown below):

 

Right Jubilee Phase Comparison.jpg

 

The blue trace represents a standard set of Bessel 3rd order filters with dialed-in delays for my right-side Jubilee, while the red trace is first order filters with dialed-in delays and shortened down K-402 horns.  The brown trace is a measurement of a Danley SH-50 in the elevated center position between the Jubs.  The difference in sound over the stock Jubilee configuration and its "approved" DSP settings is so significant that I'd recommend Jubilees for anyone that wants to have the same sound quality as Danley Synergies, but in a larger, more acoustically efficient format.  The MEHs will have a little more fidelity in terms of flatter phase and group delay curves, but the Jubs will be right there with the MEHs.  Your choice (and pocketbook).

 

When I started this effort about 6 months ago, I had intended to use the knowledge gained only for the MEH crossover settings, but it turns out that the same crossover design principles work with just about any loudspeaker that's bi-amped or tri-amped using DSP crossovers (if the spacing between the drivers is within 1/4 wavelength at the crossover frequencies).  I'm floored by the increase in subjective listening quality.  The effect is subtle in terms of describing the increase in listenability, but not in terms of sitting and listening for hours to just about any reasonably good recordings.

 

Chris

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Send me your current .xdat preset file exported from your Xilica to my email address, and I'll return to you a first cut on a first order crossover preset and PEQs.  You can then take a measurement using that updated .xdat file, and return the measurement "mdat" REW file via email to me.  I can then return to you a dialed-in .xdat file to compensate for the crossover changes. 

 

Voila! You're done.

 

Chris

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On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 9:57 AM, ClaudeJ1 said:

Even if we round this number up to an even +20 db, or 100 times the nominal power, we will never need more than 1 WATT for a modern 2" compression driver with a huge, heavy ceramic or modern smaller/lighter NEO magnet!!

 

What's cool is that  distortion is lower at those low power levels, probably lower than any other type of speaker. The clarity of horns in a home setting is truly amazing.👍

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On 2/12/2019 at 12:44 PM, Chris A said:

When I started this effort about 6 months ago, I had intended to use the knowledge gained only for the MEH crossover settings, but it turns out that the same crossover design principles work with just about any loudspeaker that's bi-amped or tri-amped using DSP crossovers (if the spacing between the drivers is within 1/4 wavelength at the crossover frequencies).  I'm floored by the increase in subjective listening quality.  The effect is subtle in terms of describing the increase in listenability, but not in terms of sitting and listening for hours to just about any reasonably good recordings.

 

Chris

Good work, Chris. I just want to add that doing all this with factory Jubilees is cheaper than doing it with Synergy Horns, whose main advantage is "smaller than LaScalas" vs. those big Jubes with K-402's. The Jubes win in the WOW factor when someone walk in the door for a test listen. Also, it's a different angular coverage. Either way it's all about ROOM Space, where you actually SIT, and amplifier cost.

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1 hour ago, Don Richard said:

 

What's cool is that  distortion is lower at those low power levels, probably lower than any other type of speaker. The clarity of horns in a home setting is truly amazing.👍

Even my homemade Quarter Pies, had an amazing bass DEFINITION with a $20 chip amp that only put our 6 watts. Eminence 15C with $200 worth of lumber, sawdust, screws, and PL Glue, and your are there, if you can afford the FOOTPRINT.

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I believe that this is as good a time as any to recap the "why" of MEHs that is driving my interest and time investment (which is the subject of this thread):

  1. MEHs increase measured and subjective clarity over other conventional fully horn-loaded loudspeakers due to their point source capability & undisturbed constant directivity (i.e., no lobing). 
  2. Properly set up, and without requiring FIR filtering, MEHs have almost linear phase behavior as compared to other full-range horn loaded and direct radiating multiway designs.
  3. The K-402-MEH has useful directivity from 110 Hz-17+ kHz (depending on HF driver)--the same as the Khorn and Jubilee, and it more effectively takes advantage of room corners to further directivity and boundary gain below 110 Hz due to mouth size, the absence of bends in the horn path, and form factor.
  4. The MEH doesn't require a corner to have -3 dB roll off response down to 32 Hz (albeit without the advantage of its own directivity gain below ~70-90 Hz).
  5. The K-402-MEH design has a 1/3 size form factor as compared to a Jubilee.
  6. High efficiency of horn-loading is retained.
  7. It has significantly lower costs over a typical corner horn loudspeaker.

That's a significant set of advantages over a corner horn or other fully horn-loaded loudspeaker, and is something that even the "full range" driver aficionados (e.g., Fostex, etc.) are looking for, but can't really achieve.

 

Chris

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3 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I believe that this is as good a time as any to recap the "why" of MEHs that is driving my interest and time investment (which is the subject of this thread):

  1. MEHs increase measured and subjective clarity over other conventional fully horn-loaded loudspeakers due to their point source capability & undisturbed constant directivity (i.e., no lobing). 
  2. Properly set up, and without requiring FIR filtering, MEHs have almost linear phase behavior as compared to other full-range horn loaded and direct radiating multiway designs.
  3. The K-402-MEH has useful directivity from 110 Hz-17+ kHz (depending on HF driver)--the same as the Khorn and Jubilee, and it more effectively takes advantage of room corners to further directivity and boundary gain below 110 Hz due to mouth size and form factor.
  4. The MEH doesn't require a corner to have -3 dB roll off response down to 32 Hz (albeit without the advantage of its own directivity gain below ~70-90 Hz).
  5. The K-402-MEH design has a 1/3 size form factor as compared to a Jubilee.
  6. High efficiency of horn-loading is loudspeakers is retained.
  7. It has significantly lower costs over a typical corner horn loudspeaker.

That's a significant set of advantages over a corner horn or other fully horn-loaded loudspeaker, and is something that even the "full range" driver aficionados (e.g., Fostex, etc.) are looking for, but can't really achieve.

 

Chris

Yes, of course. There is not such thing as a "full range" driver. PEQ's 2-way or 3 way is the only way to achieve full bandwidth, and even then, you need a HORN Sub to keep up for the last lower octave. As for number 7 you have to be talking DIY and not factory built.

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9 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

As for number 7 you have to be talking DIY and not factory built. 

So far, that's true.  But I don't believe that's going to stay that way for long. 

 

In fact, I believe that there is a possibility that direct radiating loudspeakers might be overtaken by MEHs because of the significant advantages listed above...at least for "hi-fi" loudspeakers.  A typical dual flair pyramidal horn (like Danley uses) is just not very difficult to fabricate.  Just peek at Bill Waslo's SynergyCalc spreadsheet to see how "not difficult" it really is.

 

Chris

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3 hours ago, Chris A said:

So far, that's true.  But I don't believe that's going to stay that way for long. 

 

In fact, I believe that there is a possibility that direct radiating loudspeakers might be overtaken by MEHs because of the significant advantages listed above...at least for "hi-fi" loudspeakers.  A typical dual flair pyramidal horn (like Danley uses) is just not very difficult to fabricate.  Just peek at Bill Waslo's SynergyCalc spreadsheet to see how "not difficult" it really is.

 

Chris

Tom has told me in private Emails that he would like to see this happen in the consumer market, but his Biz partner doesn't agree. I think it would fly, but the average consumer would still consider an MEH to be too big. Audiophiles are only are the TRUE 1% of the population and they are dying faster than the youth being indoctrinated into hi-fi dom. I do appreciate your spirit, though.

 

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11 hours ago, Don Richard said:

 

What's cool is that  distortion is lower at those low power levels, probably lower than any other type of speaker. The clarity of horns in a home setting is truly amazing.👍

Been on that bandwagon since I was 19. I read all the Klipsch papers (autographed by PWK) right after high school. I lived about 4 blocks from a Klipsch dealer where I bought my first stereo at 14 years old with paper route money, same year I discovered Khorns by just being a dumb kid hanging out at the store.

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I'd like to stay focused on the K-402-MEH, instead of talking about other topics here.  This thread is getting long as-is and diverting it to talk about other topics would dilute its purpose.

 

I'll start another thread on the topic of MEHs as possible successors to DR loudspeakers.

 

See:

 

Chris

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Two Chris,

 

For all the reasons stated in your recap above, MEHs interest me very much.  If I were to assemble another “final” setup, it would involve MEHs.  However, at my age (70) and in my small space, my DIY Super Heresys with 4 DIY Anarchy Exodus TH subs will probably take me to my grave.

 

Your comment about “full range” drivers is spot on.  For years I relied on five DIY Fostex FE103 single drivers for 5.1 and 2.1.  While fine in 5.1 for TV and movies, they are lacking in 2 channel.  The superb imaging is not enough to compensate for the sacrifices at the upper and lower extremes.  I still use them for TV and movies, but 2-channel is a different animal.

 

I’ve seen and heard Claude’s @ClaudeJ1 MEH system, which enables me to agree with your recap.  I’ll follow MEH threads with great interest.  Yo never know when I’ll need another sawdust fix.

 

FWIW, the post with the photo of Forte ?s went over my head also.

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On 2/12/2019 at 12:44 PM, Chris A said:

Yes. The horn would not be a K-402--but much heavier--about 2x to 3x heavier than the present K-402.  This represents a much stiffer horn than the stock K-402 to accommodate the woofers and significantly reduce flexing...

 

Chris

Chris,

Are you having an issue with the K402 based prototype involving flexing?  Are there unwanted resonances heard or showing up in REW?

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No issues with measurements or simulations.  Just engineering knowledge of how stiff the horn should be...and the stiffer, the better. There are even some people that have used concrete as a horn material (but I don't recommend that, however, since it makes the horns into boat anchors--and they cannot be made in thinner sections).

 

No resonances that I can identify, but until I get a horn made and test it A-B fashion...  The clamping of the horn's flange on the mouth end to the box gets about 95% of the issues.  The rest of the story on thicker horn material is just good engineering practice.

 

Chris

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