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Chris A

A K-402-Based Full-Range Multiple-Entry Horn

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And how is the integration of point source speakers with TH subs?

I ask because of a presentation of Danley I attended locally.

There were SH 46, 60 and 96 with TH sub(s).

I was impressed how clear they can play in high SPLs. However, the integration of TH horns worked a sort of OK only when one of them were involved. They had two more stacked and engaged them occasionally just for us to hear the difference. No 2 and 3 were in most cases too much and boomy.  

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53 minutes ago, parlophone1 said:

I was impressed how clear they can play in high SPLs.

 

Thanks for sharing your observations. Can you describe the listening room?

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It was a dome shaped hall made of concrete that serves as a venue for smaller concerts and bigger parties.

There is not much furniture. Only a DJ bridge at one part of the hall and the stage at the opposite. Walls are covered with wood panels.

 

The diameter of a hall is about 140 feet and the height at the apex of a dome was at around16-20 feet.

The rectangular console with synergy horn speakers was at 1/4 of a room.

TH subs were in front of SH speakers, maybe a few feet.

 

The audio rack with all the controls was placed at about 3/4  of a room opposite to the speakers.

We were listening one SH at a time, then with added TH sub(s). All sorts of music. Visitors had a chance to play their own music from whatever source.

In short, SH 96 sounded the best and was most tonally accurate. SH96 needed a sub only occasionally with deepest bass. All other SHs benefited the sub.

SH 46 sounded very sweet but not necessarily most accurate. All SHs sounded a bit hot in the treble.

If I had to choose to use or not to use the sub, I would play without it.

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On 5/10/2019 at 1:04 AM, parlophone1 said:

And how is the integration of point source speakers with TH subs?

I think that a lot of people forget the quarter wavelength spacing rule when it comes to subs--let's call it the "Danley rule".  At 80 Hz, that maximum spacing between your sub(s) and your main speakers is ~42.5" (about a metre) in order to be within 1/4 wavelength at the 80 Hz crossover frequency. 

 

But note that the room acoustics begin to play a factor in this frequency band, namely the transition between the dense room mode region and the sparse mode region (also known as the Schroeder frequency).

 

My room's calculated Schroeder frequency is ~100 Hz, so anything below that frequency will begin to be strongly affected by the wavelengths of sound being significant relative to the maximum dimensions of the room (9 feet high, 15.5 feet across, 40 feet long).  I cross over at 30 Hz to my TH subs, each located just behind the left and right Jubilees. The quarter wavelength distance at 30 Hz is 9.4 feet--such that the subs integrate not only with the front Jubilee bass bins, but also the center and sidewall loudspeakers within 9.4 feet radius from each sub's mouth.  The subs physically form a backstop for each of the Jubilee bass bins. The integration of the TH subs with all the room's loudspeakers is seamless at 30 Hz. I wouldn't try to increase the crossover frequency to 80 Hz under any circumstances.  The TH subs handle a measured frequency band of 13.8 Hz (-3 dB point without EQ boost) to the 30 Hz crossover frequency with the Jub bass bins and center K-402-MEH.

 

On 5/10/2019 at 3:51 AM, parlophone1 said:

It was a dome shaped hall...The diameter of the hall is about 45 feet and the height at the apex of a dome was at around 16-20 feet.  The rectangular console with synergy horn speakers was at 1/3 of a room.  TH subs were in front of SH speakers, maybe a few feet. 

 

In short, SH 96 sounded the best and was most tonally accurate. They needed a sub only occasionally with deepest bass. All other SHs benefited [from using] the sub...All SHs sounded a bit hot in the treble...If I had to choose to use or not to use the sub, I would play without them.

Remember the size of the room is a big factor in hearing those crossover frequency irregularities, especially when the subs are crossing too high.  For a venue this size, the Schroeder frequency would be about 90 Hz, and the lowest frequencies supportable at 1/2 wavelength at about 10-12 Hz.  This means that you're going to hear stereo bass to a fairly low frequency in that venue.  But this isn't true for listening rooms with smaller dimensions.  For the SH-96, the Danley spec sheet shows a -3 dB frequency of 50 Hz (assumed to be half space loading--which would be applicable in your listening case from your description of your listening venue). 

 

For me, if the point-source loudspeakers (Synergies, in this case) are not also touching a front wall (quarter space), you're losing a great deal of low frequency extension.  I can easily hear the lack of response below 50 Hz--as the timbre of the loudspeaker is affected (which is one reason why I abandoned trying to use a tri-amped JuBelle as a center loudspeaker and instead opted to go to the K-402-MEH...and the apparent source width [ASW] of the K-402-MEH is also much wider than the JuBelle).  I easily get 26 Hz (-3 dB point) with the K-402-MEH in quarter space, elevated about 47 inches from the floor to the centerline of the K-402, and EQed to flat response.  Under that condition, the need for the subs is generally only for LFE content and a few pipe organ recordings that haven't been significantly attenuated below 50-100 Hz.  The output power LEDs on the TH sub amplifiers generally don't show any movement for music-only performance when crossed at 30 Hz.

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

9" high, 15.5 feet across, 40 feet long

 

Slot-loading everything?

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7 hours ago, Chris A said:

The integration of the TH subs with all the room's loudspeakers is seamless at 30 Hz. I wouldn't try to increase the crossover frequency to 80 Hz under any circumstances.

 

Are you saying this about the TH sub in general, or about your system in your nine foot tall room, specifically?

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8 hours ago, Chris A said:

The output power LEDs on the TH sub amplifiers generally don't show any movement for music-only performance when crossed at 30 Hz.

Agreed. Mine are crossed at 40 Hz. and there's not usually much below that, until I pop in Blue Ray with Atmos, then the power meters go crazy. For music, the hardly ever come on, except maybe for 1 watt or so, rarely if ever.

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On 5/10/2019 at 12:28 PM, Khornukopia said:

Are you saying this about the TH sub in general, or about your system in your nine foot tall room, specifically?

My system.  It took me a while to chase down all the issues, however...

 

634929766_RightJubwithsubFRandPhase.thumb.jpg.be352367b71c7e4f5359cc0d9e2e80cb.jpg

 

Chris

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Please note that ChrisA's graph is in 2 db increments and NOT 5 or 10 like the "usual suspects." That is one smooth and wide response for sure!! I will be reaching 14 Hz. myself when I'm done with my new Super Tapped Horn. the lumber is cut, the glue awaits patiently..............................

 

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Claude's comment brings up a point: one question that occurred to me sometime ago was "how flat does the frequency response have to be before I can't hear any difference?".  I tried flattening the response across the board to ±3 dB, then ±2 dB...and then ±1.5 dB.  The answer surprised me: the flatter you can make the total frequency response, the better the resulting sound.  The way in which it sounded better was even more surprising: more natural and engaging.  By the way, the same thing happened when I smoothed the phase response even further.  Some of that discussion can be found in this thread:

 

I guess the bottom line of this is that there is more to the use of DSP crossovers than meets the eye.  You really can't flatten the amplitude or phase response using passive crossovers to these levels shown here, but it's a brief afternoon adventure using a quality DSP crossover, using your ears and looking closely at some REW measurement plots to significantly improve your setup's sound quality in the same way.  The results that I've achieved trump anything that I have gained swapping out hardware (some of it gets expensive, like amplifiers and preamps, etc.) and has provided me with a hi-fi sound system that impresses me every time that I turn it on.

 

One note: I recently tried a miniDSP 2x4 HD ($205 from Amazon), and the results were surprisingly good.  The unbalanced (RCA) connections are of course a little noisier than the (XLR) balanced connections on the Xilica and other professional DSP crossovers, but the noise level achieved is low enough to run my surround channel loudspeakers (ESS AMT-1 tweeters on top of Belle bass bins) without any discernible hiss at the listening positions and probably good enough for the Jubilees or the K-402-MEH center.

 

Chris

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18 minutes ago, Chris A said:

The results that I've achieved trump anything that I have gained swapping out hardware (some of it gets expensive, like amplifiers and preamps, etc.)

 

But now you find yourself in a position where you can find no joy/reward in stumbling across component combinations that create magical synergy!  Whatever are you going to do with your time and money now?  :)

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28 minutes ago, glens said:

Whatever are you going to do with your time and money now?  :)

 

That's an easy one: building MEHs.

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6 hours ago, Chris A said:

Claude's comment brings up a point: one question that occurred to me sometime ago was "how flat does the frequency response have to be before I can't hear any difference?".  I tried flattening the response across the board to ±3 dB, then ±2 dB...and then ±1.5 dB.  The answer surprised me: the flatter you can make the total frequency response, the better the resulting sound.  The way in which it sounded better was even more surprising: more natural and engaging.  By the way, the same thing happened when I smoothed the phase response even further.  Some of that discussion can be found in this thread:

 

I guess the bottom line of this is that there is more to the use of DSP crossovers than meets the eye.  You really can't flatten the amplitude or phase response using passive crossovers to these levels shown here, but it's a brief afternoon adventure using a quality DSP crossover, using your ears and looking closely at some REW measurement plots to significantly improve your setup's sound quality in the same way.  The results that I've achieved trump anything that I have gained swapping out hardware (some of it gets expensive, like amplifiers and preamps, etc.) and has provided me with a hi-fi sound system that impresses me every time that I turn it on.

 

One note: I recently tried a miniDSP 2x4 HD ($205 from Amazon), and the results were surprisingly good.  The unbalanced (RCA) connections are of course a little noisier than the (XLR) balanced connections on the Xilica and other professional DSP crossovers, but the noise level achieved is low enough to run my surround channel loudspeakers (ESS AMT-1 tweeters on top of Belle bass bins) without any discernible hiss at the listening positions and probably good enough for the Jubilees or the K-402-MEH center.

 

Chris

Thanks for the info Chris..

 I plan on using a MiniDSP 2x4 for my surrounds too.

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Not the 2x4...rather the 2x4 HD.  Those are completely different animals.

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32 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Not the 2x4...rather the 2x4 HD.  Those are completely different animals.

Oh well. I have a pair of 2x4s..not going to spend $400 plus for a pair of 2x4HDs, when I have 2x4s. If down the road I have extra cash to spend I might just buy a Xilica 2040 if needed for my surrounds. Right now the Xilica XP4080 will do what I need for the front 3 channels and a sub or two...plus a pair of 2x4s for surrounds,

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I noticed that Danley Sound Labs now has a cinema offering for large, medium, and small (a.k.a., home) theaters (https://danleycinema.com/).   I apologize to Klipsch for putting this link here, except for the fact that Klipsch could also and quite easily compete and win--due to their domain knowledge to build superior multiple entry horn designs, as I feel that they easily could do, using the K-402 and related horns that have been selling for the last 20+ years by Klipsch. 

 

The largest Danley cinema "Synergy" (i.e., MEH) offering is their CSH-1196 model which approximates the K-402-MEH shown here.  Danley also two smaller versions which include  clearly re-stenciled versions of their SM-96 (smallest) and SH-69 (intermediate) sizes. These are mono-amped loudspeakers with passive crossovers, which some see as advantage, but which are increasingly now a cost driver in production and a source of reliability issues in service as capacitors age and their values drift.  A high quality DSP crossover easily beats the performance of passive crossovers (and as Tom Danley himself has mentioned on diyAudio). 

 

I don't believe that Klipsch has much to worry about here for most home theater installs since the largest version (CSH-1196, a re-stenciled SH-96) are ostensibly  listed at $8600USD EACH unit (i.e., $17,200 for a pair).  My guess is that the K-402-MEH can be made quite easily for about $2200USD each ($4400USD a pair) using Klipsch products and using really good drivers, i.e., much better compression/midrange drivers than Danley uses by buying a KPT-305 module.  The user would then merely need to cut the off-axis ports as shown in this thread for the woofers, and swap out the apex 8" KPT-305 cone driver for something like a BMS 4592ND (dual-diaphragm compression driver). (The PEQs/delays for the K-402-MEH are available from this writer.)  This configuration would directly compete and beat--in terms of acoustic performance--the CSH-1196.  

 

It looks like Danley is making a play for the largest Cinema installations using its Jericho series of loudspeakers, thus reducing the number of units required to significantly simplify installation space/costs. 

XXL-e1553358714466.png

 

While the Jericho technology (and the related tapped horn subwoofer designs) are still covered by patents and you would still need to go to Danley to buy these units, the multiple entry horns (MEHs) are not covered by patents since the originating patent has been expired for several years. The latest "Synergy" patent (US 8284976) actually does not control the MEH design, since it is controlling a passive crossover design only, and itself acknowledges the earlier (US6411718) patent as the controlling patent on the basic design.

 

Chris

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By the way, the Danley cinema MEH designs all have 90 x 60 degree coverage angles...and the Jericho horn (largest auditoriums) has a 90 x 40 degree coverage.  This is almost twice the horizontal coverage of the SH-50, which in my experience, the real limitation of using SH-50s in a home theater application--the horizontal coverage of the SH-50 is a bit too narrow for anything but the narrowest of home theaters.

 

Chris

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