Jump to content
The Klipsch Audio Community
Chris A

A K-402-Based Full-Range Multiple-Entry Horn

Recommended Posts

One of the capabilities that I use in my K-402-MEH is that it has such a good coupling with the room/boundaries (i.e., the horn mouth is not nearly as undersized like it is for other horn-loaded bass bins, and it therefore loads much better in boundary effect with its two 15" woofers), the F0 roll-off frequency of the K-402 itself in quarter space or eighth space (i.e., against a wall/floor interface in a room corner) is well below 200 Hz, especially due to better loading of the off-axis woofer ports away from the mouth of the K-402.  (Something that is discussed in detail in Danley's Synergy Horn/tapped horn white paper.  See figure 4 of that paper for an explanation). 

 

The K-402-MEH actually couples to the room boundaries at and below the Schroeder frequency (~100 Hz in my listening room).  This means that the K-402-MEH receives boundary gain loading to the woofers quite easily, which extends its in-room -3dB roll off frequency down to ~40-45 Hz, well below the frequency that would be predicted by horn length/horn expansion formulae. 

 

Below you will see the raw response of the K-402-MEH along a wall (mid-wall, elevated about 3 feet above the floor):

 

New Center - Woofers Only RAW No EQ.png

 

After flattening out the rise in SPL response between 50 Hz and 700 Hz (a woofer SPL response characteristic of MEHs that is even more exaggerated by Danley Synergy of loudspeakers, such as the SH-50), and by adding a reasonable amount of EQ boost below F0, the K-402-MEH at mid-wall, it produces a -3 dB frequency at ~18 Hz (shown in the first post in this thread). That means it eliminates the need for a subwoofer in the center "anti-node" position of my listening room, without adding significant harmonic and modulation distortion to its output (in fact, lower distortion than the TH subwoofers on either side at the same higher SPLs).

 

This capability came as a total surprise when I was dialing it in using my Xilica crossover. 

 

Chris

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One of the capabilities that I use in my K-402-MEH is that it has such a good coupling with the room/boundaries (i.e., the horn mouth is not nearly as undersized like it is for other horn-loaded bass bins, and it therefore loads much better in boundary effect with its two 15" woofers), the F0 roll-off frequency of the K-402 itself in quarter space or eighth space (i.e., against a wall/floor interface in a room corner) is well below 200 Hz, especially due to better loading of the off-axis woofer ports away from the mouth of the K-402.  (Something that is discussed in detail in Danley's Synergy Horn/tapped horn white paper.  See figure 4 of that paper for an explanation). 
 
The K-402-MEH actually couples to the room boundaries at and below the Schroeder frequency (~100 Hz in my listening room).  This means that the K-402-MEH receives boundary gain loading to the woofers quite easily, which extends its in-room -3dB roll off frequency down to ~40-45 Hz, well below the frequency that would be predicted by horn length/horn expansion formulae. 
 
Below you will see the raw response of the K-402-MEH along a wall (mid-wall, elevated about 3 feet above the floor):
 
post-26262-0-32460000-1452522706.png
 
After flattening out the rise in SPL response between 50 Hz and 700 Hz (a woofer SPL response characteristic of MEHs that is even more exaggerated by Danley Synergy of loudspeakers, such as the SH-50), and by adding a reasonable amount of EQ boost below F0, the K-402-MEH at mid-wall, it produces a -3 dB frequency at ~18 Hz (shown in the first post in this thread). That means it eliminates the need for a subwoofer in the center "anti-node" position of my listening room, without adding significant harmonic and modulation distortion to its output (in fact, lower distortion than the TH subwoofers on either side at the same higher SPLs).
 
This capability came as a total surprise when I was dialing it in using my Xilica crossover. 
 
Chris
Do your woofers go lower than the Kappa15Cs?

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've not used Kappa 15Cs (rather I'm using Crites 15" cast frame woofers), so I don't know the answer.  I suppose I could guess but I don't think that would give you any real information.

 

Chris

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've not used Kappa 15Cs (rather I'm using Crites 15" cast frame woofers), so I don't know the answer.  I suppose I could guess but I don't think that would give you any real information.

 

Chris

Just trying to figure out if I should stick with the Kappas for the surrounds. The next pair will be made out of bendable plywood and mdf...modeled off of the short side of the k402. This will allow for a 25" square cabinet for use as surrounds. They will be smaller than a LaScala. If I am successful I will send all the info to you for suggestions for woofer size and port size. I am not sure if a 25x25x18 cabinet is big enough volume waize for 2 15s...maybe I need 4 10s?

 

Sent from my SM-G985F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I looked at the specs for my Kappa 15c woofers and saw that they can move almost 1/2" at the lower frequencies. I have noticed sometimes a thud sound, so I have wondered for a while if they might be hitting since when I i stall them the gasket compresses to where there is about a finger nail gap between the mounting board and the basket. I am going to use some 12mm mdf for rings and install them on the center channel to see if the thud sound still happens. Now this thud is not when listening loud at all...it is when l8stening at -40 to -50 on my Yamaha which when using my phone spl meter is below 90db(midrange and above reading).

Are the 1/2" woofer rings going to affect anything besides the delays?

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was listening to music when I heard the thud...it was not a loud thud as I was listening at 90db or less.

 

This is what I found... I am not driving the speakers hard at all. I am just worried that when I install the woofers there is only a fingernail of clearance and that leaves me almost zero clearance. With such a small amount of clearance it would not take much for them to hit. I have read where others have installed woofer rings with these woofers, and also some that have not. I want to be sure that when these ara fully tuned, I will not have any problems. As far as the thud I only know it is coming from the woofers. If I push on the woofer they do have some movement, but I have no idea how much they are moving when I hear the thud sound. If I stick my finger in the port the woofer is hardly moving at all.20efc55e6538f049f9b1d5469ecf3ef9.jpg

 

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, rickmcinnis said:

Putting the speakers in the corners does not do that much for the bass - not anywhere as much as theory would predict in my room.  When i had the thing almost centered but in front of the lummoxes I am not getting appreciable any more bass.

 

Luckily that doesn't make much difference since I am not depending on the MEH for much of anything below 50 hz.

Mid-wall loading:

 

K-402-MEHwithDanley-StyleCrossoverFilters.jpg

 

I got about a 16 dB rise in bass response going from mid-wall to flat in the room corner (on the floor).

 

You might rethink and experiment with your PEQs.  These aren't "regular" loudspeakers.  Start by boosting below what you currently think is F0, then take a measurement and look at the harmonic distortion when you get to about 20 Hz with flat response.  Compare that to your subwoofer relative harmonic distortion at the same SPL.

 

Chris

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, NBPK402 said:

I looked at the specs for my Kappa 15c woofers and saw that they can move almost 1/2" at the lower frequencies. I have noticed sometimes a thud sound, so I have wondered for a while if they might be hitting since when I i stall them the gasket compresses to where there is about a finger nail gap between the mounting board and the basket. I am going to use some 12mm mdf for rings and install them on the center channel to see if the thud sound still happens. Now this thud is not when listening loud at all...it is when l8stening at -40 to -50 on my Yamaha which when using my phone spl meter is below 90db(midrange and above reading).

Are the 1/2" woofer rings going to affect anything besides the delays?

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk
 

I seem to remember other members having this issue, you might need to put a spacer under speaker. If members with more experience with a  kappa c don't response here you might want do a separate post. I use one in my DIY center but it's front mounted, good luck.

,

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I finally completed my room. Sounds fantastic, truly not heard a better HT or 2 channel.

My MEH works very well, I am 100% happy.

2306ffb0bce10c82c406e28812f690e2.jpg

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I finally completed my room. Sounds fantastic, truly not heard a better HT or 2 channel.

My MEH works very well, I am 100% happy.

2306ffb0bce10c82c406e28812f690e2.jpg
Looks great! I currently have my center sitting on a furniture dolly until I make a stand for it so I can angle it up to the mlp.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Looks great! I currently have my center sitting on a furniture dolly until I make a stand for it so I can angle it up to the mlp.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk


By the way, I finally caught myself up this thread. My install required the use of spacers with the Kappas. I had my kappas in belles prior to being used here, they required a spacers with them as well.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you realize that the MEH design, coupled with a DSP/amplifier combination (and there are other solutions available besides the Hypex, but the Hypex FusionAmp series has outstanding amplifier performance), can have a turn-key full-range loudspeaker that doesn't care what you call its sensitivity (a current stumbling block for Klipsch engineering, I believe, when it comes to the consumer marketplace and not the cinema or PA marketplace), you can have a loudspeaker that can easily handle 20-20,000 Hz, no problem (and I've achieved a -3 dB point of below 18 Hz with my current center in the mid-wall/elevated position).  This eliminates the need for subwoofers for HT or stereo use if you constrain the placement to be along or touching a wall, and the low bass performance gets even better if you're within 7 feet of both corners of the room at once (i.e., 1/4 wavelength at 40 Hz). 

 

I still heartily encourage Klipsch marketing and engineering to reconsider MEHs of the full-range variety as a viable growth path to 21st century horn-loaded hi-fi, something that more and more younger audio enthusiasts will value.  This isn't my invention (in actuality)...but it sure works well.

 

Chris

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...