Powered Amp, do I need one?

[jlantz]

Hey Guys,

 

I recently built my first real home theater setup. I'll list the components below. My overbearing question is do I need a powered amp. Well its a little too late for me to question this as the receiver I bought does not have pre-outs. I also didn't know when I bought my Yamaha that they rate in 2 ch. I know super noob of me. 

 

This is what I understand so far. I know Klipsch speakers have an extremely high sensitivity requiring little amounts of power to drive. I also know that it usually take little wattage to actually drive speakers at what could be considered normal listening levels for movies and music. I read on the emotiva forums that some people with Klipsch setup noticed a slight difference but not a huge difference. There setups were not really the same but close to mine. I'm worried that my receiver is under powered for my system. On the other hand I would be looking at roughly 600-800 to sell my current receiver and also get a 3-5 ch emotiva powered amp. 

 

What are your guys thoughts and experience?

 

Here is my system...

 

Yamaha RX-V677 if i recall it outputs 105 w in 2 ch

Belkin PureAV conditioner 

RB-81 ii fronts

RC-62 ii center

RS-42 ii sides

RB-61 ii backs

SVS PB-1000 sub

 

My room is aprox 25 ft by 25 ft and i sit about 12-15 feet from the tv and front speakers. 

[BluBitRates]

Nice system! How do you like it? No i think your system is adequite without a amplifier. If if all channels were being driven it may not be ideal but i think what you have should work fine. Also if you bought a different receiver with preouts the amp section would likely be beefier as the mid and higher grade models offer pre-outs. A different receiver itself might be a nice upgrade for you down the road. You have caught a case of upgradeitis my friend.

[willland]

With your particular setup, I would say you don't "need" an outboard amp.

 

With that said, your room is quite large at a minimum of 5000ft3 and your seating position is a good ways back.  If you are able to return your current AVR or sell and recoup most of the $$$, then I would say do that and get a flagship AVR or near flagship and see how well it handles the task.  Add an amp later if you feel your system is lacking.

 

Bill
 

[teaman]

I notice a huge improvement going to Emotiva amps from the Yamaha receiver. I sold my Yamaha RX-V2700 which was 130 x 7 for reference, the addition of an outboard amp was hugely noticeable. Headroom and reserve power for the big bang sequences in HT are powered by the amps ability to provide that extra oomph. Not a chance that the Yammy keeps up with the Emotiva amps. For regular listening of music and low volume HT you won't notice but for the "experience" it will show, no doubt about it.

 

Here's an idea. Emotiva offers 30 day in home, so you can decide whether you want it or not. Take advantage and demo it A/B with and without the amp. If you are unhappy send it back. No questions asked.

 

 

 

Tim

Edited January 27, 2016 by teaman

[oldred]

Answer to your question...... Yes

[garyrc]

Hey Guys,

 

I recently built my first real home theater setup. I'll list the components below. My overbearing question is do I need a powered amp. Well its a little too late for me to question this as the receiver I bought does not have pre-outs. I also didn't know when I bought my Yamaha that they rate in 2 ch. I know super noob of me. 

 

This is what I understand so far. I know Klipsch speakers have an extremely high sensitivity requiring little amounts of power to drive. I also know that it usually take little wattage to actually drive speakers at what could be considered normal listening levels for movies and music. I read on the emotiva forums that some people with Klipsch setup noticed a slight difference but not a huge difference. There setups were not really the same but close to mine. I'm worried that my receiver is under powered for my system. On the other hand I would be looking at roughly 600-800 to sell my current receiver and also get a 3-5 ch emotiva powered amp. 

 

What are your guys thoughts and experience?

 

Here is my system...

 

Yamaha RX-V677 if i recall it outputs 105 w in 2 ch

Belkin PureAV conditioner 

RB-81 ii fronts

RC-62 ii center

RS-42 ii sides

RB-61 ii backs

SVS PB-1000 sub

 

My room is aprox 25 ft by 25 ft and i sit about 12-15 feet from the tv and front speakers. 

 

Your Left Front and Right Front speakers are very efficient.  The others may be also (I don't know, offhand).  I agree that this means you don't need a powerful amp in terms of watts per channel.  The problem might come:

 

• If there is a large impedance dip somewhere in your speakers' frequency range.
• If you want to play back at true movie reference level.  That, at the main listening position, would be 85 dB nominal (which is nearly meaningless) or 105 dB full scale for the loudest peaks (only; never play a continuous tone or pink noise at that level) -- that is relevant.  The subwoofer has its own built-in amp, so your AVR's power is not important in regard to your subwoofer, but the subwoofer's own amp should be able to drive your sub to subwoofer reference, which is 115 dB, for the loudest peaks, at the main listening position.  Neither of these refers to the sound pressure level (SPL) at 1 watt (2.83 volts) at 1 meter, which is what manufacturers give you.  In a room (as opposed to outside) you lose about 3 dB for every doubling of distance.  So, if your main listening position is 4 meters away you would subtract 6 dB from the figures at 1 meter.   All this is important only if you want to play your movies as loud as they do in commercial theaters.  You room is big, but not compared to a theater.  You may be able to knock 3 dB off the above figures, since your room is "small" compared to movie theaters.  I usually play movies at about 5 dB below reference in my home theater, which is smaller than yours. 

The "all channels driven" figure for many AVRs averages about 80% of the "2 channel's driven" figure -- or so I've heard.  See reviews in magazines like Home Theater to see what the bench tests showed with all channels driven for your AVR.  Likewise to see if your speakers have a large impedance dip.

 

I'd probably keep what you have, particularly if you are not a loudness freak, then next time (and there will be a next time, thanks to this hobby hijacking dopamine channels in the brain) get an AV preamp-processor and a powerful multi channel power amp, like one of the top-of-the line Emotivas (or any other good brand).  I'd probably recommend getting a pre-pro with Audyssey XT32.  With a pre-pro & power amp, you don't need an AVR.

Edited January 27, 2016 by garyrc

[jlantz]

I notice a huge improvement going to Emotiva amps from the Yamaha receiver. I sold my Yamaha RX-V2700 which was 130 x 7 for reference, the addition of an outboard amp was hugely noticeable. Headroom and reserve power for the big bang sequences in HT are powered by the amps ability to provide that extra oomph. Not a chance that the Yammy keeps up with the Emotiva amps. For regular listening of music and low volume HT you won't notice but for the "experience" it will show, no doubt about it.

 

Here's an idea. Emotiva offers 30 day in home, so you can decide whether you want it or not. Take advantage and demo it A/B with and without the amp. If you are unhappy send it back. No questions asked.

 

 

 

Tim

 

Tim, I like your style! Plus I think I can sell it to the wife in this form

 

I'm thinking you might have done something similar!

 

I looked online and I could get a RX-A840 for 500 bucks and sell my current. Now i'm freaked out though... Does the RX-840 out 100 w into 7 ch or 2 ch. Yamaha seems to have slightly deceptive advertising and I can't tell. 

 

Under overview: Which i think is really saying 100 w output 2 ch with 7 total channel output. In the specs sections it has it listed as 100 w x 2 ch

 

• 100 W x 7-channel powerful surround sound 
•  
• This is the specs section: ​

Channel 7.2 Rated Output Power (1kHz, 2ch driven) 110 W (8 ohms, 0.9% THD) Rated Output Power (20Hz-20kHz, 2ch driven) 100 W (8 ohms, 0.09% THD)

[teaman]

Just so you know, Emotiva is having a factory refreshed secret sale right now and you can save some cash on an amp. Too bad you never jumped on the Sherbourn PT 7020 pre/pros that Emotiva just cleared out cheap. Great combination for a decent price. That is what I am using in two rooms.

 

Emotiva's Ebay store jadedesign just offered up some amazing Sherbourn SR-120 receivers for $325 buy it now. One Klipsch forum member got in quick and got one. True power house that originally sold for three grand. Keep an eye on that shop for deals too.

Edited January 27, 2016 by teaman

[derrickdj1]

If things sound OK, you may be good with what you have.  The avr will use less power with speakers set to small and using a sub.  On the other hand, many of us do use power amp and like them.  Will it be a night and day difference, maybe, maybe not.  It all depends on how loud you listen, how critical you are listening, room acoustics, and gear synergy.  I like the combo of Flagship avr with a power amp.

[wvu80]

Emotiva's Ebay store jadedesign just offered up some amazing Sherbourn SR-120 receivers for $325 buy it now. One Klipsch forum member got in quick and got one.

 

That would be me. 

 

I already have a decent 7.2 Onk AVR with pre-outs which rates about the same basic power as the Sherbourn.  I could have added an external amp with more oomph but I was afraid the compromised pre-out section in the Onk would then be the bottleneck for true high quality performance.

 

Upon closer examination and with some expert guidance from Tim the Teaman I discovered the Onk 717, which has good specs, is a toy compared to the SR-120.  For many technical reasons comparing my Onk's 125 watts to the Sr-120's 125 wpc is comparing apples to applesauce when it comes to true 5.1 or 7.1 firepower.  The Sherbourn was a flagship $3500 AVR when released in 2010 and is the real deal.

 

When Tim alerted me to it last week it took a couple of PM's and about 5 minutes to think about it for me to pull the trigger.  It will be here tomorrow.

Edited January 27, 2016 by wvu80

[teaman]

What are friends for!

[K5SS]

In that room, I would add another PB-1000 long before I added an amp..

[teaman]

In that room, I would add another PB-1000 long before I added an amp..

 

Good call. A second sub, or trade up to a single more powerful sub would improve your experience. The sub takes the load off your speakers...and amps and will bring you noticeable improvement.

[BusaDude]

My overbearing question is do I need a powered amp.

Why do YOU think this? Have you run out of power with the setup you have? Or do you listen very loudly (105+dB) all the time?

The simple answer is no... Even if you bought a 5 channel amp rated at 200 watts per channel. You're only going to gain 3-5 decibels of headroom compared to your current receivers 105 watt rating into 2 channels... which is probably 60-70 watts into all 5 channels.

I read on the emotiva forums that some people with Klipsch setup noticed a slight difference but not a huge difference. There setups were not really the same but close to mine.

Different setups, different rooms and just a "slight difference"? What is this" slight difference"? Is it a better difference... Or worse? And how will you know?

I'm worried that my receiver is under powered for my system.

What are your guys thoughts and experience?

Here is my system...

Yamaha RX-V677 if i recall it outputs 105 w in 2 ch

Belkin PureAV conditioner

RB-81 ii fronts

RC-62 ii center

RS-42 ii sides

RB-61 ii backs

SVS PB-1000 sub

My room is aprox 25 ft by 25 ft and i sit about 12-15 feet from the tv and front speakers.

Your receiver is not under powered for your current speakers... However, it sounds like your whole system is too small for your room. (based on the questions you're asking).

RB-81's are very nice BOOKSHELF speakers... And will sound great anywhere. BUT, they will not (even in a 5.1 setup) fill up a 25' x 25' room with big sound/volume. And sitting 12-15 feet back doesn't help.

You would have been much better off buying a pair of RP-280F's and a better spec'd AVR to start with... and then building on that 2 channel setup as you could afford to add pieces to it.

From where you're at now, making sure all your current speakers are set to small in your AVR (and crossed at 80Hz give or take), will let your sub do the heavy lifting and make the best use of the power your receiver currently has.

If you want to upgrade what you have... you could start with an amp, but you'll need a new receiver or pre/pro to use it. But I'd add another subwoofer first and then look at upgrading your front 2 speakers with a larger pair of floorstanders and move the RB-81's to surround duty.

Then you could look at a different AVR with better "all channels driven" power. Or look into a separate 5-7 channel amp and preprocessor.

Lots of ways to go... How much do you want to spend?

[willland]

Yamaha seems to have slightly deceptive advertising and I can't tell. 

 

All the mainstream AVR(Yamaha, Marantz, Onkyo, Denon, etc.) companies do in some way shape or form.   As mentioned recently in other threads(by me ), good outboard amplification is cheap on the used market.  Get a "better" AVR(or peamp/processor) with multichannel preouts and an outboard amp and bypass the "deceptive" AVR power ratings.

 

Bill 

[Scrappydue]

My overbearing question is do I need a powered amp.

Why do YOU think this? Have you run out of power with the setup you have? Or do you listen very loudly (105+dB) all the time?

The simple answer is no... Even if you bought a 5 channel amp rated at 200 watts per channel. You're only going to gain 3-5 decibels of headroom compared to your current receivers 105 watt rating into 2 channels... which is probably 60-70 watts into all 5 channels.

I read on the emotiva forums that some people with Klipsch setup noticed a slight difference but not a huge difference. There setups were not really the same but close to mine.

Different setups, different rooms and just a "slight difference"? What is this" slight difference"? Is it a better difference... Or worse? And how will you know?

I'm worried that my receiver is under powered for my system.

What are your guys thoughts and experience?

Here is my system...

Yamaha RX-V677 if i recall it outputs 105 w in 2 ch

Belkin PureAV conditioner

RB-81 ii fronts

RC-62 ii center

RS-42 ii sides

RB-61 ii backs

SVS PB-1000 sub

My room is aprox 25 ft by 25 ft and i sit about 12-15 feet from the tv and front speakers.

Your receiver is not under powered for your current speakers... However, it sounds like your whole system is too small for your room. (based on the questions you're asking).

RB-81's are very nice BOOKSHELF speakers... And will sound great anywhere. BUT, they will not (even in a 5.1 setup) fill up a 25' x 25' room with big sound/volume. And sitting 12-15 feet back doesn't help.

You would have been much better off buying a pair of RP-280F's and a better spec'd AVR to start with... and then building on that 2 channel setup as you could afford to add pieces to it.

From where you're at now, making sure all your current speakers are set to small in your AVR (and crossed at 80Hz give or take), will let your sub do the heavy lifting and make the best use of the power your receiver currently has.

If you want to upgrade what you have... you could start with an amp, but you'll need a new receiver or pre/pro to use it. But I'd add another subwoofer first and then look at upgrading your front 2 speakers with a larger pair of floorstanders and move the RB-81's to surround duty.

Then you could look at a different AVR with better "all channels driven" power. Or look into a separate 5-7 channel amp and preprocessor.

Lots of ways to go... How much do you want to spend?

nothing beats a good dose of honesty. You have a very big room and small to medium kind of system. Nothing wrong with that but if you are trying to listen to it super loud you'll be better off finding more capable speakers vs ANY OTHER UPGRADE mentioned. Yes an amp can help if running all channels crazy hard. But speakers last you the long run. Not amps. Amps will last but a good set of speakers can last the rest of your life. That is where your investment should be.

Great post GP

[wvu80]

 

Yamaha seems to have slightly deceptive advertising and I can't tell. 

 

All the mainstream AVR(Yamaha, Marantz, Onkyo, Denon, etc.) companies do in some way shape or form.   As mentioned recently in other threads(by me ), good outboard amplification is cheap on the used market.  Get a "better" AVR(or peamp/processor) with multichannel preouts and an outboard amp and bypass the "deceptive" AVR power ratings. -Bill

 

I agree with both of you regarding deceptive AVR power ratings, and it's getting worse!

 

It was bad enough getting a 7.x AVR and power was rated with the misleading "two channels driven" but now some companies such as Onkyo are rating power with ONE channel driven!

 

It's a deceptive practice which will fool 90% of people who will look at power ratings and think a 90 wpc channel AVR is more powerful than one that is 100 wpc.  Then there's the another 5% like me who know enough to look and still be confused by what the numbers mean.  If you "kinda" know then you don't really know.  That would be me.

 

Lastly there is the top 5% of the buying public which includes many of the knowledgeable members of this forum who truly do what the numbers mean and are smart enough to not even waste their time looking at the meaningless power numbers in the first place!

Edited January 27, 2016 by wvu80

[kapsnb01]

Great post by GP...agree whole heartedly with him and scrappy. Best advice I got on this forum was to put your money into speakers and sub first, electronics later. You'll save a ton of money with the right speakers out of the gate.

Electronics come and go as technology changes. Good speakers last a very long time.

[wvu80]

Electronics come and go as technology changes. Good speakers last a very long time.

 

Words to live by. 

[jlantz]

First of all thank you all for the replies. I've been watching this like every hour on my phone but wanted my laptop to reply.

 

Nice system! How do you like it? No i think your system is adequite without a amplifier. If if all channels were being driven it may not be ideal but i think what you have should work fine. Also if you bought a different receiver with preouts the amp section would likely be beefier as the mid and higher grade models offer pre-outs. A different receiver itself might be a nice upgrade for you down the road. You have caught a case of upgradeitis my friend.

 

I'm loving my system. I came to this forum originaly for some advice on upgrading my speakers. The main problem i had is I started a system at an apartment. Then I moved to a house and had to get rear speakers. Then the front speakers were to small. Then i got new rear speaker stands and the RB-51s looked too small on them. So i bought RB-81s and put the RB-61s in the back... It was a vicious circle. I wish i could just do it over

 

 

 

In that room, I would add another PB-1000 long before I added an amp..

 

Good call. A second sub, or trade up to a single more powerful sub would improve your experience. The sub takes the load off your speakers...and amps and will bring you noticeable improvement.

 

 

I'm perfectly happy with the sub output. Definitely way more power there then i need. I like loud bass but I've had to run over to turn it down during a couple movies because its so loud i'm worried about my neighbor getting pissed.

 

Your receiver is not under powered for your current speakers... However, it sounds like your whole system is too small for your room. (based on the questions you're asking). 

RB-81's are very nice BOOKSHELF speakers... And will sound great anywhere. BUT, they will not (even in a 5.1 setup) fill up a 25' x 25' room with big sound/volume. And sitting 12-15 feet back doesn't help.

You would have been much better off buying a pair of RP-280F's and a better spec'd AVR to start with... and then building on that 2 channel setup as you could afford to add pieces to it. 

From where you're at now, making sure all your current speakers are set to small in your AVR (and crossed at 80Hz give or take), will let your sub do the heavy lifting and make the best use of the power your receiver currently has. 

If you want to upgrade what you have... you could start with an amp, but you'll need a new receiver or pre/pro to use it. But I'd add another subwoofer first and then look at upgrading your front 2 speakers with a larger pair of floorstanders and move the RB-81's to surround duty. 

Then you could look at a different AVR with better "all channels driven" power. Or look into a separate 5-7 channel amp and preprocessor. 

Lots of ways to go... How much do you want to spend?

 

To your point GP, when i originally started buying components I really wanted towers. I just can't have them without it looking good in the room. My room has other compromises to the sound system as well. My couch faces a fire place with a TV over it. I have bookshelf on either sides and a mantel that runs the length of the room. So the RB-81s and RC-62 sit on a fireplace mantel about 4 ft high. I tried putting my bookshelves on stands in various areas in the front and it all looked bad. That was my attempt to visualize what towers would look like. The wife won that battle.

 

I originally had the speakers all set to small. I've been playing with my receiver a lot. I have the RB-81s and RC-62 set large now and sub crossed over at 80 hz. Currently i use DPIIx Movie or Music with extra bass on which I believe cuts the low freq sounds to LFE+Mains. 

 

Like I said I don't know if it would help or not but what I'm wanting is more punchy bass from the speakers themselves. I may be wanting something thats not possible? I've also been reading about clipping and didn't know if that was a potential problem. 

 

The more I've read about receivers it looks like finding anything that outputs anywhere near the claimed outputs is possible. So I don't think I would notice anything just going to the RX-A840 like mentioned above?