Powered Amp, do I need one?

[jlantz]

Here is a picture of my living room for reference. Well half of it. 

[Ski Bum]

Nice looking room!

 

That punch you desire comes from lots of dynamic range in the power band (from their lower limits up to 400 hz or so).  I agree w/ GBP's frank assessment.  

 

Without changing up gear, try applying some boost to the bass (whatever eq or tone controls the Yamaha has to offer...if it has the equivalent of Audyssey's dynamicEQ, try that).  If you're at the speaker's punch and dynamics limits now, out of necessity you will have to listen at slightly lower overall volume, but with the eq it may sound more punchy, with a more natural sounding tonal balance.  Fletcher Munson thing.    

 

Also, using dual (or more) subs is more about achieving smooth bass response throughout the room, not necessarily greater output (although you'll get a bit more of that too).  Multi subs are a great thing, and probably the most cost effective upgrade available to you.

 

Just think, that Yamaha with deceptive specs would be plenty powerful for Heritage speakers.  You'll get there, eventually.  It's inevitable.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Ski Bum

[willland]

Here is a picture of my living room for reference. Well half of it. 

 

 

Very nice room.  I see the compromise you have to make with the mantel and all.

 

Just for kicks and giggles, try flipping the RB-81II's over with the horns lined up with the horn on the RC-62II and see(hear) how it sounds.

 

I am not sure by adding an amp you will hear more noticeable bass to the RB-81II's with them being at a much higher plane than your ears.  Those woofers must sit a good 10 to 12 inches above your ears.  If you were able to tilt them forward a few degrees you might notice something.

 

Bill

Edited January 28, 2016 by willland

[jlantz]

 

Here is a picture of my living room for reference. Well half of it. 

 

 

Very nice room.  I see the compromise you have to make with the mantel and all.

 

Just for kicks and giggles, try flipping the RB-81II's over with the horns lined up with the horn on the RC-62II and see(hear) how it sounds.

 

I am not sure by adding an amp you will hear more noticeable bass to the RB-81II's with them being at a much higher plane than your ears.  Those woofers must sit a good 10 to 12 inches above your ears.  If you were able to tilt them forward a few degrees you might notice something.

 

Bill

 

 

Ya, I didn't even think about flipping the 81's. My concern then is it might be 'cut' by the mantel. It's probably hard to see but there is a good 1.5-2 ft of mantel from the 81's to the edge. 

 

I just got my system really dialed in recently. I think I may listen to it before making any decisions but I'm kind of leaning towards just getting another SVS PB-1000 and maybe get a slightly better yamaha like the A840. Give that a shot and see what I think. I gave my wife a heads up I may spend another couple thousand. 

[willland]

Something else you may consider would be to use all(3) RC-62II's as your front soundstage and they would all be on the same horizontal plane.

 

Bill

[BusaDude]

I wish i could just do it over

I like loud bass but I've had to run over to turn it down during a couple movies because its so loud i'm worried about my neighbor getting pissed.

I originally had the speakers all set to small. I've been playing with my receiver a lot. I have the RB-81s and RC-62 set large now and sub crossed over at 80 hz. Currently i use DPIIx Movie or Music with extra bass on which I believe cuts the low freq sounds to LFE+Mains.

Like I said I don't know if it would help or not but what I'm wanting is more punchy bass from the speakers themselves. I may be wanting something thats not possible? I've also been reading about clipping and didn't know if that was a potential problem.

The more I've read about receivers it looks like finding anything that outputs anywhere near the claimed outputs is possible. So I don't think I would notice anything just going to the RX-A840 like mentioned above?

I hate to say it again, but it's simply the speaker system versus the large room (full of bookshelves and furniture)...

Even with your current receiver, in 5.1 mode, the RB-81's would be capable of 110+ dB or so (at 1 meter) before you might run into any clipping issues (provided they're set to small). In 2 channel mode you would have another 2 dB or so. And even if you could feed the RB-81's their full rated power (150 wpc continuous), that would give you maybe another 3-4 dB.

But with your listening position being 12+ feet away, you're going to lose 10-12 dB (with every doubling of distance you'll lose 6 dB)... So now you're at 100 dB (which is loud) at your couch, but that's with the volume nearly maxed out.

The RB-81 II's are 2 way speakers and that 8" woofer (probably closer to 6.5" or 7" driver width) has to handle everything from 45 Hz (their -3 dB rated point) up to the 1400 Hz crossover. That's why setting them to small and crossing them at 80Hz would ease their workload and the load on your receiver.

The "punch" you're looking for is the ability to move enough air so that you can feel it. And the RB-81's simply can't do that... You'd need solid response down to 30Hz and LOTS of driver area for a room your size. In a smaller room and sitting "near-field" (6 feet or so) the RB-81's would do a much better job.

That's why I think a second sub (placed close to or right behind your couch) would really do the best job at providing the "punch" you want. Or if you can move your existing sub close enough that it's near-field, it may work at providing the punch you want without adding a second subwoofer.

The RX-A840 is a definite upgrade in the features/connectivity department. But it's still rated at 100 watts per channel (2 channels driven, 20Hz-20KHz). It does have some nice dynamic (short term) power specs, so it probably has a better power supply and should be able to supply a little more with all channels driven.

With your room size and speaker placement options (and a wife to keep happy) there's not much more you can do except try an additional subwoofer.

If you didn't have those restrictions, a used pair of KLF-20's or 30's, RF-7's, Chorus II's or the new RP-280's would "punch" you all over the room.

Edited January 28, 2016 by GPBusa

[ClintonH]

You couls also try offloading a bit of the upper bass to the sub and see if you like that or not. Bump it up to 100-120hz and see how it sounds, you can normally get away with that high before it becomes localized.

As GP says the 81's just don't have the displacement for the impact your looking for.

[garyrc]

But with your listening position being 12+ feet away, you're going to lose 10-12 dB (with every doubling of distance you'll lose 6 dB)... So now you're at 100 dB (which is loud) at your couch, but that's with the volume nearly maxed out.

 

Outside, or in an anechoic chamber, (i.e., in a free field) you do lose about 6 dB with every doubling of distance, but in most rooms, you only lose about 3 dB with every doubling of distance. 

[Scrappydue]

But with your listening position being 12+ feet away, you're going to lose 10-12 dB (with every doubling of distance you'll lose 6 dB)... So now you're at 100 dB (which is loud) at your couch, but that's with the volume nearly maxed out.

Outside, or in an anechoic chamber, (i.e., in a free field) you do lose about 6 dB with every doubling of distance, but in most rooms, you only lose about 3 dB with every doubling of distance.

i have always been told every meter you move away is 3db loss. Also have read this everywhere too. Never heard of anyone saying it for chambers or outdoors. Only talk of it being in a room.

[Ski Bum]

Scrappy, it's simply the inverse square law as it pertains to acoustics, and yes, it is ~6db/m loss in anechoic conditions.  Within an enclosed space the losses are typically 3-4 db/m.

[Scrappydue]

so what I have always been told is correct. Good. I don't like bad gouge

[oldred]

Amps will last but a good set of speakers can last the rest of your life. That is where your investment should be.

What set of speakers have you had for life....you go through more speakers than any guy I know

Edited January 28, 2016 by oldred

[Scrappydue]

Correct but every speaker I own in my house is at least 16 years old. Other set is 30. And they both are perfect in every way still

And I like trying new things..... So there's that.

[garyrc]

so what I have always been told is correct. Good. I don't like bad gouge

 

It's the doubling of distance that loses about 3 dB inside, 6 dB outside or free field.  So, inside, 1M to 2M loses about 3 dB, but 2M to 4M also loses 3 dB, as does 4M to 8M, etc.

 

PWK moved a mic from 2 feet away to 16 feet away (3 doublings), and lost about "8 to 9 dB," across the frequency spectrum, in a room at Hope.  That's probably in Dope from Hope somewhere.  It was to illustrate that direct/reflecting speakers were not a major breakthrough, since much sound is reflected from the walls with any speaker -- or else the loss would be more like 6 dB for each doubling of distance in a room, which it isn't.

Edited January 29, 2016 by garyrc

[Scrappydue]

Don't know why everyone else says the other way around. Hey guess what? I have a mic to measure spl. Easy enough. Weekend project.

[oldred]

Didn't mean to give you s--t Scrap..... I know you have had your Cornwalls a while..... You probably got them when you were 12.

No offence

G.E.M

[Scrappydue]

Lol. No I bought those in 2012. I was 27 when I bought them. Those will be with me for a very long time. They will eventually be my sons. If he ever learns how to take care of things.

[BusaDude]

Here is a good link to the calculations... So just to be clear 6 dB loss for each doubling of distance (anechioc) and then less than that depending on a "regular room" and it's reverberant qualities. So at 12+ feet it's still down 6-9 dB.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/acoustic/isprob.html#c3

[garyrc]

Here is a good link to the calculations... So just to be clear 6 dB loss for each doubling of distance (anechioc) and then less than that depending on a "regular room" and it's reverberant qualities. So at 12+ feet it's still down 6-9 dB.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/acoustic/isprob.html#c3

 

The foundation is that it is the doubling of distance that results in a 6 dB loss in a free field.  In a room, naturally it depends on the acoustical characteristics of the room, but 3 dB for every doubling of distance is an approximation based on a listening room of typical liveness and size.  I believe the room PWK used for his measurements (earlier post, above) was the same size as one I had at the time -- if memory serves -- which was 16' x 24' x 8' or about 3,000 cu. ft.  He got an "8 or 9 dB" loss, on average, across the frequency spectrum after three doublings of distance.  He ran a sweep at 2' and at 16'.

Edited January 29, 2016 by garyrc

[jlantz]

I have another question. So i mentioned earlier I was missing the punch out of my speakers. Recently i put on some music and switched the yamaha to straight (so 2 channel and sub). I felt like my front speakers came to life. I really got the punch (bass) from them i was looking for. I even had to turn my sub down to make sure they were really putting out like they were. 

 

I usually run movies in PIIx2 movie (believe thats the name). I definitely don't get the punch i was during 2 ch straight. 

 

In your guys opinion, is this a fact of the sound processing of PII2x movie? I have extra bass on which puts the bass to LFE+Mains. I'm pretty sure it should be applying it to PII2x movie as well? With that said I don't get the same response in PII2x as straight 2 ch. 

 

I feel like when i watch my movies I have 5-7 tweeters and a sub. I want that 2ch punch when i watch my movies.