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Pioneer Elite questions


stygz

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I have noticed there are a lot of fan of the Pioneer Elite AVR's. I have been giving some thought to getting a new AVR. What makes many of all such a fans over other brands? I look at the specs of the amp (SC91) and notice they rate at 130wpc but at 1khz and not full spectrum like others. Why offer a different measurement that Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha? I can see how the cooler running amp is appealing, but what gives with listing a limited spec? Is pioneer known to be a warm sounding AVR like a Marantz or Denon? How has the wifi connection been (support 5.8ghz band)? How is the room correction compare to Audyssey Silver? I thought I saw something that the Pioneer was more like the Odyssey XT (subwoofer eq). Like I said I may be shopping for a AVR because I am getting frustrated with wifi connectivity issues on my Denon. I am also interest in little more power. Currently my short list is a Yamaha 850 and 1050, Onkyo Z800. Although the Pioneer Elite 91 has a lot going on. 

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I have the VSX 53 and I really like it. 

 

I use it as a pre though into an external amp.  The only thing I don't like is the intermittent functionality of the internet remote.  In other words, you have to adjust the eq with the music/movie not playing and it's cumbersome.  I don't know if they've resolved this with the newer models, but this is my chief frustration with the Pioneer Elite.  The sound quality is great though.

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I use my Pio mainly as a pre only... I would move to a Marantz 8801, but right now I need power for C/LR/RR and the class D is really all that despite what some might have you think. I look mainly for blackness and Pio provides that in spades. Additional Pro's are that it comes with the Excellent MCACC PRO room correction with dual individual sub woofer EQ capability, an excellent ess 9018 chipset for Digital analog conversion and many many other decoding and playback features (though I really do not use many of them).

 

It does everything I need it to do right now with MUCH reserve capability and power... and if everything else in my chain happened to fail at once, I could still plug into it and play music and watch HT.

 

I would not call the sound of a Class D as Warm, I would call it "Clean"... but not necessarily sterile.

Edited by Schu
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I would not call the sound of a Class D as Warm, I would call it "Clean"... but not necessarily sterile.
  

This is the way I would describe the sound, ultra clean. I prefer the Pioneer room correction system. It just has the ability to get things balance and sounding great.  Most people with Auddysee complain about the bass not being right and

bumping it up and down trying to get it right.  Pioneer has a standing wave correction feature that is every bit as important as sub EQ.  Truthfully, you really need both.  This may be one of the reason the sound is so clean.

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Interesting responses. Not to sound ignorant but my past experience with pioneer was the typical stuff found on the best buy shelf.....not high end stuff by any means. I also purchased a Pioneer 25 disc cd changer years ago. 

 

I looked up a review of the SC 89 on sound and vision and the test bench results. It seemed like a strong showing. On another note It seems like Yamaha does not fair well on test bench results. I mostly look at the 8 ohm five channel 0.1 continuous results. For what that is worth.

 

The sound correction sounds like a good set up. I like the dual sub eq. I may be picking up a second PC 2000 down the road. 

 

I am going to have to keep the SC 91 on my radar and maybe demo it at home when the time comes.

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I have owned Denon X4000, Onkyo 818, Yamaha RX-A2010, Pioneer SC-91, Denon 4310ci, Pioneer SC-25 and a handful of other $1k+ receivers over the last 5 years.

My personal experience is that I am not a Denon or Onkyo fan. I know they make fantastic receivers and most people love them, I just prefer Yamaha and Pioneer.

I would say that the Pioneer SC series has the most "oomph" and the Aventage line is the most user friendly. Pick your poison.

I am not a professional tester and I very rarely tested the different reveivers side by side or even with the same speakers. Only noting my personal experiences.

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I went thru 3 avr's before setteling in on the Pioneer Elite,  I tried 2 Denon for around 3 weeks and returned them to BB.  This way I had a chance to play with the room correction and see the difference is SQ.  Don't get us wrongs, Yamaha, Marantz , Onkyo and Denon have their loyal following. 

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I have looked at some reviews on the listed AVR's.

The SC 91 seems to have complaints on a clumsy set up and Mobil app is to be desired. Also notes on a general buggy software. No complaints in power and once set up and personal touches are made people seem to be happy with the room correction.

Onkyo Z800 does not seem to up convert to 4K. Great power output seems to be the consensus. Onscreen menus seem to be lacking. Respectable reviews on their room correction. Lacks specific subwoofer eq.

Yamaha 1050 seems to offer a nice rounded package. Bench tests seem to show a weaker amp compared to similar rated onkyo, denon, and pioneer but seems to be the cleanest rated. Yamaha shares the same D/A converter? Highly rated one at that? Yamaha seems to offer the best onscreen menu interface and least buggy software. Room correction seems on par with Onkyo. No specific subwoofer EQ.

Thoughts on the HDCP 2.2. I have to think the future of video will be streamed like what has mostly happened with music. With that being said services such as Netflix being streamed on the TV and sendin ARC to the AVR for sound, I have to wonder if 2.2 is just something the industry is scaring people into? I can see myself buying a 4K TV and using my AVR to up convert blu ray. In theory 2.2 may not be a big deal after all?

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Amplifier power corresponds to acoustic power. Doubling the amplifier power increases the acoustic power by 3dB. For example:

Increasing an amplifier from 25 watts to 50 watts (double the power) increases the acoustic power by 3dB.

Increasing an amplifier from 25 watts to 100 watts (4 times the power) increases the acoustic power by 6dB. This is same as doubling the power from 25 watts to 50 watt (3dB), and then doubling the 50 watts to 100 watts (another 3 dB), giving the total increase of acoustic power of 6 dB or 4 times the power.

Increasing an amplifier from 25 watts to 250 watts (10 times the power) increases the acoustic power by 10dB.

The following table gives some more examples:

dB Change Power change

+3 ......................x 2

+6 ......................x 4

+10.....................x 10

+20.....................x 100

+40.....................x 1000

However, please note that doubling the power does not double the Sound Pressure

increasing the sound pressure by a factor of two (double) requires an increase of 6dB (x4) in amplifier power

increasing the sound pressure by a factor of 10 (x 10) requires an increase of 20dB (x100) in amplifier power

So, when gaining 5 or 10 watts from one AVR to another, that is a negligible increase. You should be looking at sound quality, features, build quality, cost, appearance, and upgradability? Although, there is something to be said for those extra 10-20watts as reserve power to maybe keep a cleaner sound when pushed close to the limit.

Edited by MercedesBerater
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IMO the D3 amps sound very good with big horns.

When my Pioneer went down temporarily a couple of months back I plugged in a mid line Yamaha AVR from Costco and was surprised by how good it sounded as well. Not as good as the D3 equipped Pioneers but solid non the less, and also it was a much less expensive unit. Makes me wonder how their TOTL stuff sounds.

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What I find interesting about some reviews on sound and vision is that often the test bench results come up short on Yamaha compared to other brands. For instance s 80wpc Denon was tested at 69wpc @ 8 ohms, 5 channel continuous power. A Yamaha rated at 140 wpc tested at 46wpc under the same specs. I understand what you wrote but wonder what is with Yamaha on the test bench?

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I use my Pio mainly as a pre only...

Which model may I ask? The SC's get expensive with pre-out and multichannel in.

OOPs! Double click...

Its all in my sig... an SC85. I didnt and do not need the marginal advantages of the higher models than the 85...

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What makes many of all such a fans over other brands?

For me it's the tandem combination of multi-channel D3 amplifiers and MCACC Pro under one hood for home theater use. I can't stress it enough...it takes the two technologies (chip amps & onboard DSP) to tango.

I look at the specs of the amp (SC91) and notice they rate at 130wpc but at 1khz and not full spectrum like others.

Above a certain threshold, power isn't everything. The quality and capacity of the power supplies are, however. Keep in mind that an honest 100 W/ch is approaching "real cinema" power levels.

Is pioneer known to be a warm sounding AVR like a Marantz or Denon?

With as much onboard EQ and sound field processing available in the Elite series, you can make the system sound essentially however you want.

How has the wifi connection been (support 5.8ghz band)?

I use ethernet instead. Fast, reliable, keeps EMI/RFI to a minimum.

The SC 91 seems to have complaints on a clumsy set up and Mobil app is to be desired.

A side effect of having more features to start off with. No more clumsy than my old Yamaha or Panasonic. There's only so much physical display space for such a feature intensive menu.

 

Could they have done better? Arguably so.

 

Is it a pain to use daily?

 

Not at all. Like any complex system, it's up to the person to devise their own procedures. There's a learning curve to everything. I have not experienced any "bugs" to speak of.

 

My only gripe about the mobile app is that the Sound Explorer menu (the 2nd most frequented menu) defaults to the childish "animated waterfall buttons" :rolleyes: display option. I much prefer the concise "list" display, and always have to wait a second or two for the animation to finish loading before it allows me to toggle over.

I have to wonder if 2.2 is just something the industry is scaring people into?

Some people are letting themselves get worked up about it. No one is scaring anybody. I try to keep abreast of the technologies and have found that the priorities just tend to fall in line...AV bloggers be damned.

Edited by Quiet_Hollow
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Yes. I picked up my Denon for 399 from crutchfield. I would like to buy from them again as returns are easy. They have been good to me over the years

 

They have a pretty good deal on a scratch and dent SC-85, it was the model I was going to get if I could have gotten a way better shipping rate(Canada) went with a Denon 4100W instead (saved me $300)

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_130SC85/Pioneer-Elite-SC-85.html?cc=07

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