custom d'appolito heresy with 2x 10in or 8inch woofers?

[efzauner]

What is the thought on d'appolito centers?

I have some older Heresys and was thinking of using one to build a custom d'appolito center

The mid and highs would be horizontal as normal, but the 12 inch 8ohm woofer replaced by

2 8 inch or 10 inch woofers placed in a d'appolito configuration.

The Eminence Alpha8A has 94db/meter sensitivity

The Eminence Alpha10A has 95.6db/meter sensitivity

Both are 8ohms.  I could use 2 of the heresy crossovers, one for woofer.mid.tweet, while the other crossover just for the second woofer.

Or I could find 4 ohm woofers and wire them in series. 

 

Question1: why is the Academy tweeter vertical? 
Question2: an alternative would be to buy a KG4 and change the cabinet to a horizontal design, with the woofers L and R of the tweeter.

Odd that we have not seen more of these mods. 

 

Thoughts?  

 

What if I just use one Heresy and change the motor board to place the mid/tweet horizontal when the box is sideways (IE a Heresy vertical.... yes I have read that thread)   Should I keep the tweeter horizontal or vertical as in the original T35 data sheet?  That is, the K700 horizontal and the K77 vertical? Or both horizontal?

 

thanks

Edited February 1, 2016 by efzauner

[wvu80]

First of all, I love the D'appolito designs.  The sound is so blended, you can't hear the individual drivers.

 

Here is your D'appolito MTM center, with the Eminence 8" woofers.  You might want to PM Scrappydue and ask his opinion on this as I believe he owns one.

 

This is a similar design with the Eminence 10" woofs.  BTW I have a pair of DIY 2-way which use the Eminence 10-A.

 

My suggestion is don't try to re-invent the wheel by designing your own speaker unless you Really know what you are doing.  You can't just stick a bunch of quality components together into a box in which you have cut a couple of holes and have it work properly, unless you are lucky.  In the case of a 3-way, really lucky.

 

A 3-way MTM design is very complex.  It is more likely you will end up putting several hundred dollars into a center that doesn't sound all that great.

Edited February 25, 2016 by wvu80

[Scrappydue]

First of all, I love the D'appolito designs. The sound is so blended, you can't hear the individual drivers.

Here is your D'appolito MTM center, with the Eminence 8" woofers. You might want to PM Scrappydue and ask his opinion on this as I believe he owns one.

This is a similar design with the Eminence 10" woofs. BTW I have a pair of DIY 2-way which use the Eminence 10-A.

My suggestion is don't try to re-vent the wheel by designing your own speaker unless you Really know what you are doing. You can't just stick a bunch of quality components together into a box in which you have cut a couple of holes and have it work properly, unless you are lucky. In the case of a 3-way, really lucky.

A 3-way MTM design is very complex. It is more likely you will end up putting several hundred dollars into a center that doesn't sound all that great.

nailed it! That crossover in a heresy is designed for it sitting the way it does. Not any other way. The dual 8" center wvu linked is absolutely fantastic. One of the best center channels I've owned.

[efzauner]

thanks for the feedback. Ok so never mind the KG or Academy (just spent the last 3 hours searching and reading on Cornwall and Heresy centers)

 

I don't quite understand the the purpose of the vertical Cornwall. Is it intended to stand upright, leaving the mid and tweet vertical? 

or is it intended to lie it down "landscape" so that the mid and tweet are horizontal again?

this thread seems to question this:

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/113014-klipsch-tweeter-placement/

 

 

I have seen a few posts that suggest for a center you want the mid/high vertical to reduce the horizontal dispersion! (like the academy)

I have also read some posts that suggest you can't tell the difference much.

 

Does the vertical cornwall  have a different crossover than the horizontal Cornwall? 

If not, then why not make a vertical Heresy and  lie it landscape? 

 

Like this:

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/125622-vertical-heresy-center/

 

thanks guys

 

Finally building the HT room after 20 in this house!

[Scrappydue]

May I ask a question? Are you just wanting to try a horizontal center? Can you not just use a heresy as it stands? Vertical is best period. Horizontal is a compromise and you immediately start running into lobing issues. Each company takes a different approach. But it's all the same idea. Minimize it. Period. Some are better than others. Im

Not sure about the idea behind the vertical Cornwall.

[moray james]

First of all, I love the D'appolito designs. The sound is so blended, you can't hear the individual drivers.

Here is your D'appolito MTM center, with the Eminence 8" woofers. You might want to PM Scrappydue and ask his opinion on this as I believe he owns one.

This is a similar design with the Eminence 10" woofs. BTW I have a pair of DIY 2-way which use the Eminence 10-A.

My suggestion is don't try to re-vent the wheel by designing your own speaker unless you Really know what you are doing. You can't just stick a bunch of quality components together into a box in which you have cut a couple of holes and have it work properly, unless you are lucky. In the case of a 3-way, really lucky.

A 3-way MTM design is very complex. It is more likely you will end up putting several hundred dollars into a center that doesn't sound all that great.

nailed it! That crossover in a heresy is designed for it sitting the way it does. Not any other way. The dual 8" center wvu linked is absolutely fantastic. One of the best center channels I've owned.

Really? You will be in for a special surprise if you make the effort to time align your mid and tweeters to the woofer on a set of Heresy. I have played with the three way Heresy and also a pair set up as a two way. Time alignment of drivers generally does not make customers happy because they look so strange and it generally does not make manufacturers very happy for the obvious reasons. Sure sounds good though.

[efzauner]

May I ask a question? Are you just wanting to try a horizontal center? Can you not just use a heresy as it stands? Vertical is best period. Horizontal is a compromise and you immediately start running into lobing issues. Each company takes a different approach. But it's all the same idea. Minimize it. Period. Some are better than others. Im

Not sure about the idea behind the vertical Cornwall.

Yes aesthetics and positioning issue as many have.  

You mean the lobing issues due to the phased difference at crossover freq that the d'appolito is supposed to avoid?

Perhaps I can try it out by placing one Heresy portrait for the mid and highs and place a second heresy with the woofer beside it,  Obviously disconnecting the unused drivers in the other one. 

 

Just FYI... i have 2 tangent 400s(picked up for $300canadian... was a great deal figured why not try them out)  and a lovely pair of modified, vented Heresys as mains.  Plus a rougher set of walnut heresies that I wanted to use for the center.

side and rear surrounds will be KG4 tweeter with Alpha8 woofer in a wedge vented box.  Already have the parts, they where purchased years ago and made into a portable PA speaker.. so will reuse them for HT

 

Sad part is had a pair of La Scalas purchased from Dodger in Rochester over a decade ago I sold them because i just did not have the room. sigh. 

[wvu80]

 

 

nailed it! That crossover in a heresy is designed for it sitting the way it does. Not any other way. The dual 8" center wvu linked is absolutely fantastic. One of the best center channels I've owned.

 

Really? You will be in for a special surprise if you make the effort to time align your mid and tweeters to the woofer on a set of Heresy. I have played with the three way Heresy and also a pair set up as a two way. Time alignment of drivers generally does not make customers happy because they look so strange and it generally does not make manufacturers very happy for the obvious reasons. Sure sounds good though.

 

 

Moray, you may have missed a part.  The OP wanted to use a couple of Eminence 8 or 10" woofers then hook the mid to one, the woofer to the other in a custom enclosure.

 

I agree with Scrappy that if he is going to use Heresy guts, don't lay it sideways in a custom horizontal cab.  Keep it stock and upright, the way it was intended. 

[teaman]

Efzauner. I have a modified KG4 centers in two of my HT's. They sound amazing as centers based horizontally. I have the two 8 inch woofers on the sides with the horn centered horizontally between them. The KG4 is not one for bass but in a HT where the subwoofer is picking up most of the heavy lifting the KG4 as a center sounds awesome. The vocal clarity of the KG4 is what everyone loves about it. I used the stock crossover and stock components with the omission of the passive radiator which I felt was no longer needed.

 

You can see both the center and the towers I built with the KG4 components in my avitar. 

Edited February 1, 2016 by teaman

[efzauner]

Efzauner. I have a modded KG4 in two of my HT's. They sound amazing as centers based horizontally. I have the two 8 inch woofers on the sides with the horn centered horizontally between them. The KG4 is not one for bass but in a HT where the subwoofer is picking up most of the heavy lifting the KG4 as a center sounds awesome. The vocal clarity of the KG4 is what everyone loves about it. I used the stock crossover and stock components with the omission of the passive which was no longer needed.

 

You can see both the center and tower I built with the KG4 components in my avitar. For some reason I cannot get it to copy and paste...

yes thanks  that is what I was thinking of.   I already have kg4 tweets and crossovers,,,, but 8k8 woofers are getting hard to find. Seems they just age poorly. KG4 pairs go on sale around her for $300-400 canadian   I could take one and convert it to a front sell the rest of the parts....  

 

The reason I was thinking down that path was because there was a pair of KG5.5s also for sale around here

 

Anyway... I will stick to heritage at this point.. see what it sounds like... 

[efzauner]

 

 

 

nailed it! That crossover in a heresy is designed for it sitting the way it does. Not any other way. The dual 8" center wvu linked is absolutely fantastic. One of the best center channels I've owned.

 

Really? You will be in for a special surprise if you make the effort to time align your mid and tweeters to the woofer on a set of Heresy. I have played with the three way Heresy and also a pair set up as a two way. Time alignment of drivers generally does not make customers happy because they look so strange and it generally does not make manufacturers very happy for the obvious reasons. Sure sounds good though.

 

 

Moray, you may have missed a part.  The OP wanted to use a couple of Eminence 8 or 10" woofers then hook the mid to one, the woofer to the other in a custom enclosure.

 

I agree with Scrappy that if he is going to use Heresy guts, don't lay it sideways in a custom horizontal cab.  Keep it stock and upright, the way it was intended. 

 

thanks for this  but still   everyone says keep it upright but nobody can say why? Nor how to use the vertical cornwall...  I am anal about this!  If Klipsch designed a vertical cornwall, why not a vertical heresy?  

Edited February 1, 2016 by efzauner

[moray james]

nailed it! That crossover in a heresy is designed for it sitting the way it does. Not any other way. The dual 8" center wvu linked is absolutely fantastic. One of the best center channels I've owned.

Really? You will be in for a special surprise if you make the effort to time align your mid and tweeters to the woofer on a set of Heresy. I have played with the three way Heresy and also a pair set up as a two way. Time alignment of drivers generally does not make customers happy because they look so strange and it generally does not make manufacturers very happy for the obvious reasons. Sure sounds good though.

 

Moray, you may have missed a part.  The OP wanted to use a couple of Eminence 8 or 10" woofers then hook the mid to one, the woofer to the other in a custom enclosure.

 

I agree with Scrappy that if he is going to use Heresy guts, don't lay it sideways in a custom horizontal cab.  Keep it stock and upright, the way it was intended. 

thanks for this  but still   everyone says keep it upright but nobody can say why? Nor how to use the vertical cornwall...  I am anal about this!  If Klipsch designed a vertical cornwall, why not a vertical heresy?

You can experience a vertical Heresy any time you want all you need to do is to rotate the cabinet 90 degrees. Or you could build a new cabinet if you wanted to and you would gain some bass extension as a result of the larger cabinet volume. If you think about it is is easy to figure out why Klipsch never built a vertical Heresy and probably never will. The Heresy is that size that it is for a very simple and obvious reason. The Heresy is the largest volume cabinet which you can fit two of into a single (4'x8') sheet of plywood or MDF. Likewise the Cornwall is the size that it is because that is the largest single cabinet that you can build from a single 4'x8' sheet of material. No fancy magic no special formula or special reason just simple economics.

does not matter if you are aligning a three way or a two way same thing happens.

If you have a heresy it will be easy for you to listen to it with the horns horizontal and vertical (you will be changing the polar patterns by doing this) see what you think of the sound and pick the one you like the best that will be the best for you. It is that simple you don't need anyone to tell you anything.

Edited February 1, 2016 by moray james

[Thaddeus Smith]

That crossover in a heresy is designed for it sitting the way it does. Not any other way.

 

wait, what? 

[CECAA850]

 

That crossover in a heresy is designed for it sitting the way it does. Not any other way.

 

wait, what? 

 

 

I'm thinking he means tweeter, mid, woofer config, not cabinet orientation.

[wvu80]

thanks for this but still everyone says keep it upright but nobody can say why?

 

Scrappy in Post No. 5 above did say why; it's because of lobing.

 

Horizontal is a compromise and you immediately start running into lobing issues...(snip) Scrappydue

 

 

Klipsch deals with this lobing issue in the RC-64 (four midbass/woofers) by changing the crossover points slightly to the two outside midbass/woofers.  There is also some math and wavelengths involved regarding the size of the woofer and the center-to-center distance between them.  You can't just randomly stick the woofers in the cab and expect it to work properly.

 

In general I see MTM designs with the woofers as close to each other as possible, and they almost always use a truncated mounting frame.  I've read a good technical discussion about this by Dr. D'appolito, I'll see if I can find that paper so you can get better answers than I can intelligently present. 

 

Edited February 1, 2016 by wvu80

[ClintonH]

 

thanks for this but still everyone says keep it upright but nobody can say why?

 

Scrappy in Post No. 5 above did say why; it's because of lobing.

 

Horizontal is a compromise and you immediately start running into lobing issues...(snip) Scrappydue

 

 

Klipsch deals with this lobing issue in the RC-64 (four midbass/woofers) by changing the crossover points slightly to the two outside midbass/woofers.  There is also some math and wavelengths involved regarding the size of the woofer and the center-to-center distance between them.  You can't just randomly stick the woofers in the cab and expect it to work properly.

 

In general I see MTM designs with the woofers as close to each other as possible, and they almost always use a truncated mounting frame.  I've read a good discussion about this by Dr. D'appolito, I'll see if I can find that paper so you can get better answers than I can intelligently present. 

 

 

 

Just get out the old hack saw.

 

This is kind of a interesting thread on the topic, sorta.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/157069-what-is-the-purpose-of-a-vertical-cornwall/

[Thaddeus Smith]

 

 

That crossover in a heresy is designed for it sitting the way it does. Not any other way.

 

wait, what? 

 

 

I'm thinking he means tweeter, mid, woofer config, not cabinet orientation.

 

 

regardless, the crossover is not designed with regard to wave dispersion patterns. its function is the splitting of electrical signals between drivers. right?

[ClintonH]

 

 

 

That crossover in a heresy is designed for it sitting the way it does. Not any other way.

 

wait, what? 

 

 

I'm thinking he means tweeter, mid, woofer config, not cabinet orientation.

 

 

regardless, the crossover is not designed with regard to wave dispersion patterns. its function is the splitting of electrical signals between drivers. right?

 

 

No there design with the baffle and layout of the drivers in mind as wel.

[Thaddeus Smith]

well then it's a good thing my Cornwall XO's didn't implode when I put the squawker and tweeter on top of the cabinet, horizontal to each other, and physically time aligned. my ears must be broken too.

[CECAA850]

well then it's a good thing my Cornwall XO's didn't implode when I put the squawker and tweeter on top of the cabinet, horizontal to each other, and physically time aligned. my ears must be broken too.

 

Always the dramatic one.  Take a look at a Cornwall one and a Cornwall  two.  Notice how the woofer is in  different place.  I remember reading that even if you used the same drivers and horns, the crossover wouldn't interchange due to the driver orientation.