Paducah Home Theater Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Something has been tripping me out recently. I don't get why you can take a particular speaker and play music through it, including voices, and think to yourself how great it sounds, then you play movie dialogue through the same setup, yet want to throw it in the trash. Why is movie dialogue so hard to get right, while voices on music recordings sound pretty much perfect comparatively? It especially makes no sense to me if you consider that the movie is on a higher quality medium. Some people seem to either not notice or don't know any better, I'm not sure, I just seem to be more sensitive to such things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I agree. At ref volume, voices seem boomy even in theaters. Even FM radio stations sound like real people are there sometimes. I think it's the way it's recorded so you can clearly hear what is being said. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) The following figure from Toole's book (Fig. 10.1) shows the problem pretty clearly. It turns out, it's a trade-off: When I upgraded my center from a tri-amped JuBelle (CP25 tweeter) to a multiple-entry K-402-based center, the speech intelligibility performance leapt upwards by a large amount. I'm still trying to understand why that is, but I can say that control of polars throughout the midrange region has to be a major component in that performance improvement. Performance using music also increased substantially--two for one. I'm still looking for the root cause. Chris Edited February 9, 2016 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I can say that control of polars throughout the midrange region has to be a major component in that performance improvement. +1 Guidance provided to consumers is very poor in this regard. That's why I run my center channel arranged the way I do. See #4 below. Why is movie dialogue so hard to get right, while voices on music recordings sound pretty much perfect comparatively? Aside from Toole's extensive research, I'd wager these four things also add to the fire:1. Boom mic'ing technique vs. studio mic'ing technique 2. Dubbing practices 3. The current design of the average home center channel speaker 4. Traditional implementation of the average home center channel speaker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 There's certainly a lot going on in the center channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Stereo sound requires 2 or more channels in order to get the stereo effect. Voice systems are mono systems that perform better when there is one channel and one loudspeaker. Trying to use a stereo system for voice results in reduced intelligibility because of different arrival times of the sound from the different speakers. Sometimes delay speakers are used in difficult acoustic spaces, such as houses of worship. They are not spread apart like a stereo system but are placed further down the room and are delayed so that they are in the Haas zone of 10-20 ms. When properly implemented the sound appears to come from the front of the room and the delay speakers don't sound like they are turned on. Systems like that can increase intelligibility over a single speaker setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Some people seem to either not notice or don't know any better, I'm not sure, I just seem to be more sensitive to such things. I've heard it, I bet a lot of the other critical listeners on this board have heard it too. In my case my AVR Onkyo TX NR-717 has a ton of electronic adjustments inside. I can select a Theater listening mode (Theater or Music) that sends dialog essentially to the center speaker, music to the L/R. It's super clean for both music vocals and dialog. If I use Music mode vocals get sent more to the L/R, but the L/R then images better, so it's the usual trade offs. The other adjustment I can do is dynamics. For ultra Theater experience I want max dynamics so dialog is normal, but explosions and such bring you out your seat, too loud! I also like max dynamics for music. However if I want I can level that out 2 or 3 notches so dialog and music is pretty much the same level, which is much more enjoyable for everyday TV watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Some people seem to either not notice or don't know any better, I'm not sure, I just seem to be more sensitive to such things. I've heard it, I bet a lot of the other critical listeners on this board have heard it too. In my case my AVR Onkyo TX NR-717 has a ton of electronic adjustments inside. I can select a Theater listening mode (Theater or Music) that sends dialog essentially to the center speaker, music to the L/R. It's super clean for both music vocals and dialog. If I use Music mode vocals get sent more to the L/R, but the L/R then images better, so it's the usual trade offs. The other adjustment I can do is dynamics. For ultra Theater experience I want max dynamics so dialog is normal, but explosions and such bring you out your seat, too loud! I also like max dynamics for music. However if I want I can level that out 2 or 3 notches so dialog and music is pretty much the same level, which is much more enjoyable for everyday TV watching. I think you have hit on a very important thing. The reason there are so many listening choices in an AVR is to allow the end user to choose what suits them with different sources. The center channel should be the best speaker for voices in the theater. We all know that's where most of the voices end up in a movie. Quiet has put the two best speakers IMO for this together and I am sure it sounds stunning. As Don said, voices get muddled when they come from many speakers due to arrival delays and the confusion it causes in our auditory center. In Chris' post, there is a chart that absolutely confounds me. It does explain why my kids and I listen with different settings. I suppose keeping the LR about 3-6db down from the center is the way to go if you want to keep anybody from wanting to leave. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) ... 1. Boom mic'ing technique vs. studio mic'ing technique ... In movies, lots of dialog is done in studios, especially with cartoons, etc. Here is a clip from Transformers: Edited February 9, 2016 by mustang guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) Mustang guy hit on a great point, decreasing volume of the L/R speaker will help tremendously if voice clarity is an issue. I also think it depends on how good the DSP is at getting things right. I have use large and smaller centers with the mains and dialogue clarity has never been an issues. Bumping up the center channel most of the time will not fix a clarity problem, just more of the same bad vocals. A good dedicated center is needed with good DSP timing and balance in the 800-3 kHz range. Edited February 9, 2016 by derrickdj1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Using the PLC-IIZ on the Denon X4000 if I sit directly in front of the center speaker at times on some FM HD stations I get a tack-on hashy voice syllabi sound whereas sitting to the side it is very clear. Almost sounds like over modulation at the transmitter. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 There are few things more harsh to the ears than a cooked vocal track. DTS..cough...cough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) Stereo sound requires 2 or more channels in order to get the stereo effect. Voice systems are mono systems that perform better when there is one channel and one loudspeaker. Trying to use a stereo system for voice results in reduced intelligibility because of different arrival times of the sound from the different speakers.... But in most home theater set-ups, with most Blu-rays or DVDs, the dialog comes through just one speaker, the center, unless one of the actors moves off-screen. I find the voice quality of vocal music and dialog in movies to be approximately equal. Of course, there are cases of bad microphone placement in a few movies. On the rare occasions that intelligibility is low, I turn up the center channel. A very few movies overemphasize the dialog, making me want "more orchestra," in which case I turn the center channel down. Even fewer movies, harking from the 1950s, when 4 and 6 channel sound in the movies was new, attempt to place the dialog wherever the character's mouth is (horizontally), and therefore make use of the LF and RF, as well as the center. This may cause some problems in arrival time, but those movies are very rare. I use a modified Belle Klipsch for the center channel, elevated and flush mounted in the wall behind the AT screen, with the tweeter at almost the same height as the Khorn LF & RF. The Belle tweeter is aimed right at the ears of the person at the main listening position. I also use Audyssey room EQ, Audyssey Flat for new movies, and Audyssey Reference for most old ones. For music, I use Audyssey Flat, most often. Edited February 9, 2016 by garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 One thing more harsh is when you have 18 kindergarten girls having a "Who can scream the loudest?" contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) Voices that I've heard problems with on multiple speakers: Stanley Tucci and Nicola Peltz on Transformers 4. Stanley is very nasal and Nicola has this excessive/unnatural 200 hz boominess or something going on in some scenes. Shia LaBeouf on Fury, especially inside the tank. Very nasal like Stanley. Jordi Molla on Colombiana. Voice is so low and boomy is comes through the subs. Currently aggravated with the sound of Emma Watson's voice on the last few Harry Potter movies. Edited February 9, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 You whine a lot lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 You whine a lot lol At least I can tell where the shortcomings are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 Starting to think that much of it is the recording. Watching Mad Max right now, nearly every voice sounds excellent comparatively. Charlize Theron and the main actor sounds about perfect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 The old woman, the guy who wants to drive the war rig, the breeders, all sound excellent. I don't get it. Multiple people in transformers 4 sound horrible comparatively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiva Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 ... 1. Boom mic'ing technique vs. studio mic'ing technique ... In movies, lots of dialog is done in studios, especially with cartoons, etc. Here is a clip from Transformers: That vid was great. Thanks for that. The voice of Optimus Prime was fantastic and I wondered who did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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