Near-field listening using the Cardas method with low power

[tube fanatic]

It's no secret that I long ago embraced near-field 2 channel listening as a simple method of greatly increasing involvement in the music.  The advantages have been talked about before:  huge soundstage (especially with SETs), minimal power requirements when used with Klipsch speakers (even bookshelf size models), pinpoint localization of instruments and performers, ideally suited to small to medium sized rooms, etc.

George Cardas, of cable fame, advocated a method of mathematically calculating the ideal speaker placement for near-field listening for those who have a dedicated listening room (needed because the required speaker placement may not be the most cosmetically appealing).  It's something I've wanted to try for a long time and, now that I have a room for that purpose, and having acquired a nice pair of KG3s/stands from Jim, I figured I'd give it a try.  After spending so many years in the field there's not much which impresses me.  Now I wish I had tried the Cardas method when I first found out about it!  I almost can't find the words which adequately describe the experience.  Other than large room systems using K-horns, LSs, and CWs I have never experienced a soundstage as huge as what I am hearing with this arrangement!  It is literally wall to wall horizontally with a depth extending far behind the rear wall.  The width of my room is about 11.3 feet which requires a speaker location of about 5 feet from the rear wall to the front face of the speakers, and about 3 feet from each side wall to the center of the woofers.  This puts the speakers about 5 feet apart, with the ears at the listening position forming an equilateral triangle with the speakers.  Sitting there, the speakers look like they are practically in my lap!  Before turning on the  equipment I thought to myself, "this can't possibly work."  Was I wrong!  To test whether I was being unduly biased (a complimentary term for a tube guy like me!), I called "the guy down the road" and asked him to come over.  From long association, he knew that I was onto something good and brought the requisite blindfold (I never let him see what he is listening to before hearing it.  He also didn't know which part of the house I was guiding him to).  After 10 minutes, I had him take it off and his reaction was a much stronger version of "WTF!"  He said that he thought I had gotten another pair of CWs and set them up in the 25 X 15 family room, with the listening chair at least 12 feet from the speakers. And, that's another amazing point about this method- with eyes closed it is absolutely impossible to know where the speakers are located.  Even with that prior knowledge, they totally disappear.  And, for the record, I'm driving the KG3s with my 1.5 wpc parallel SET and can easily create ear shattering (at least to me) levels with no effort at all.

I've attached some links to Cardas' information about this technique as well as a picture of my temporary arrangement.  I encourage anyone who wants to experience something amazing to try this out.  Please post your impressions if you do!  It dispels the myth that only large room systems, using large and usually costly speakers can create so much musical involvement.  


http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_rectangular_room.php

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_calculators.php
   

Maynard

[marting]

It really is amazing.  I tried this when I lived alone in a small apartment.  I had just built my Bottlehead Paramours.  I had a pair of 80's Kenwood 3 ways.  I sat down to listen to the 'Round Midnight soundtrack with my cat in my lap.  The sound filled the room.  I was really impressed.  But what really surprised me was when the first tune with a vocal came on the cat sat up and looked to see where that other person was in the room.  He thought someone else was in the room with us.

 

But, as you say, it's not always practical to use this set up.  I don't have the space in my office or the bedroom.  In the living room my wife and son would not want to be walking around the speakers and stepping over wires.  

[Jim]

Maynard,

 

I think I finally found the sweet spot with that calculator.

[Jim Naseum]

What was the height of the speakers, or say the tweeter?

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[Jim Naseum]

I've been a near field listener for many years. My setups have been similar to the Card as, but not quite as far forward from the rear wall. Maybe a foot less.. I am anxious to try the Cardas formula. I've had best luck with tweeters at close to ear height.

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[Jim]

That's where I have mine, and the towers I'm using have sounded the best so far. Even better than my forte II.

 

The SQ is definitely best when set up as per the formula for me. I started with a pair of KSB 1.1's just to see, then went to a set of KF-28's, then forte II, and now a pair of RB-25. I'd have to say the forte II were next to last out of the speakers being used so far for SQ.

 

I am going to try a set of KG 4.2's tomorrow, and then tweak things.

 

My room set up is with them 6 feet from the back wall and 3.75 feet in from the sides.And I'm dead in the middle from the center point of the middle point of the drivers.

 

The front ported speakers sound better.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Jim

[tube fanatic]

Glad to hear that this is working out well!  I'm still a bit amazed.  Being a cold, snowy day, I was able to spend some time playing around with the system, and even the Little Sweet Potato did a terrific job!  When I think of how little it would cost to put together a system like this I can't imagine why someone would want to spend more for what may be a minimal improvement.  The best part is that this will work in a fairly small room- something to consider when the kids leave home and free up a bedroom or two!

 

Maynard

[Jim]

With the KF-28's, and the RB-25's, the speakers seem to disappear and it's just a wall of sound.

 

 

jo56steph74 the speakers heights on the RB-25's are about 3 feet high and are ear level with the tweeters, the KF-28's are slightly higher at about 4 feet and sound the best out of all the speakers I used. I am going to try my RF-25's,and KG 4.2's next.

[Jim Naseum]

With the KF-28's, and the RB-25's, the speakers seem to disappear and it's just a wall of sound.

jo56steph74 the speakers heights on the RB-25's are about 3 feet high and are ear level with the tweeters, the KF-28's are slightly higher at about 4 feet and sound the best out of all the speakers I used. I am going to try my RF-25's,and KG 4.2's next.

Thanks for the info! Yeah, I have had the best sound using my smallest speakers.

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[NOSValves]

We setup a set of Cornwalls like that one year at the Pilgrimage in indy...about a half dozen of us turned the light completely out the room was pitch black and all we could see is the tube glwing on the VRDs...the speakers were gone even though they were just 5 or 6 feet away. Just like Maynard described the sound stage was huge along with the depth... The only difference was we could listen at any level we pleased...the room was sound proof! We listened until about 4 AM that night and went through lots of beer.

 

I bet a few of those guys are still around here some where!

[Seadog]

We setup a set of Cornwalls like that one year at the Pilgrimage in indy...about a half dozen of us turned the light completely out the room was pitch black and all we could see is the tube glwing on the VRDs...the speakers were gone even though they were just 5 or 6 feet away. Just like Maynard described the sound stage was huge along with the depth... The only difference was we could listen at any level we pleased...the room was sound proof! We listened until about 4 AM that night and went through lots of beer.

 

I bet a few of those guys are still around here some where!

 

Yup, I was there and remember it well.  When you put on the Elton John Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy SACD, it was almost magical.  Yup, lots of beer.

[Hornas]

So this approach works equally well with small or large speakers?

[Jim]

So this approach works equally well with small or large speakers?

 

Yes, but it seems to work better with speakers that don't have passive radiators in the rear for me.

 

 

It appears to me that you are making headphones with regular speakers or the same effect. Not practical with the Little woman though. She will be moving the speakers against the wall in no time saying they look better that way.

 

 

 

The only saving grace for me is that the room I am using is basically my "man cave" as no one uses it except me. So I'm in charge of cleaning it, as well as using it.

 

There is however a big difference in head phones and this set up as there's a huge depth with the music with the speakers, and to me it seems the music was totally rediscovered with different sound.Voices were more lifelike and instruments as well.

[tube fanatic]

Hornas, this should work regardless of the speaker size as the placement is referenced to the front baffle and center of the woofer.  And I'm finding the same thing as Jim in terms of resolution.  I don't recall ever experiencing such lifelike reproduction of the human voice especially.  My wife put on a James Taylor disc and said that she could almost reach out and touch the stage he was sitting on and, that as good as my other systems have been over the years, she has never quite felt this.  I'll have to experiment with my RF-15s when my back is recovered so I can move them myself!  This arrangement should work with rear ported speakers by modifying the placement slightly (since placement is referenced to the woofers, perhaps using the back of the speaker cabinet as the pseudo-woofer will work out).  Regarding the LSs William, the question is where to consider the woofer reference point.  It might be fun to try it on a temporary basis just to see what happens!

 

Maynard

[NOSValves]

So this approach works equally well with small or large speakers?

 Absolutely if you have the room size.... I did my nephews wedding reception and it was similar and the results were awesome. The DJ that used my gear purchased Lascalas and my amplifiers about two month after the wedding.... he and all people that attended were floored!

Edited February 16, 2016 by NOSValves

[Jim Naseum]

The effect is similar to what the makers of dipole radiators were known for. This effect, and this style of listening, was well known  in the 1970s.

[Rudy81]

Very interesting concept.  I am currently on the road, so can't take measurements, but if memory serves, I am pretty close to those dimensions.  Purely coincidental since my setup was done purely by listening and working on bringing in the home theater aspect of the room.

 

The other issue I worked on was to minimize the worst nodes of the room via treatments, sitting position and speaker placement.  In some instances, I had to give preference to placement due to HT limitations.

 

Edit: Although, I don't use low power.  Sorry guys....just realized the power comment.  

Edited February 16, 2016 by Rudy81

[CindyJarvis]

It would be neat if someone with the capability can do some before and after room eq sweeps.

I like how they mention P.W. Klipsch in this article.

http://www.audiophysic.de/aufstellung/index_e.htmlGoodnight

-Cindy

[Jim]

Maynard,

 

As per my question on bookshelves or equipment pieces: this is what I also found on the site.

 

Book Cases

Q.) I read a quick blurb in Stereophile regarding your recommendation to put bookcases against the wall parallel to speakers placed in the room. I would be interested in reading more information about this - what it does, why it works, how it works, what size bookcases, etc. -Helen

A.) A standard book case works as a "wave trap". Parallel shelves about 13" apart not only make good record and book shelves, they are also at a quarter wave length of roughly 250 cycles. This is approximately the standing wave length between the speaker and the side wall, thus they provide excellent low frequency damping. If the shelves have books or records they are also an excellent diffuser. Buy "keying" the shelves into the wall structurally, you can stiffen the walls immensely. I like to make them extra deep and inset acoustic foam in the back of the shelf. I make a very special hi-density "acoustic wall paper". It is only 3/8" of an inch thick. It starts absorbing at about 300 cycles and eliminates all slap and reflection between the walls it is applied to. This combination of shelves and absorption make the best room damping combination and does it with out being obvious. The shelves in my room run across the wall behind the speakers and along the side walls to behind the listening area. They start at 10" wide on the side walls, behind the listener, and increase to 18" wide at the corner behind the speakers. They are mechanically keyed in to the walls themselves. - George

[moray james]

It has been my experience that PWK was 100% correct when he said that "we live in the mid range". Based upon that I found that the very best sound that I ever achieve in set up s is when the centre of the mid horn is places at your seated ear height which is usually about 38 - 40 inches up off the floor. I have also found that tilting speakers either up or down toward the listen position will degrade the experience as your brain immediately recognizes that the tilt is not natural sound normally is directed right at you in most all recordings. so far as rear loaded reflex speakers and rear mounted passive radiators go you do not want them firing directly at and or very close to the wall if they are square to the wall. Normally and unless you are of the co-planar/flat earth speaker set up crowd, the toe in of the speaker is enough to eliminate reflection problems with up to the pall placement. I like to start with an equilateral triangle placement myself or get as close to that as I can it almost always works really well for good stage and image. depending upon the speaker I tend to aim the centre of the mid horn somewhere between my shoulders and my head in which case from the listening position you can easily look directly down the throat of each mid horn. This will result is the smoothest response possible. If this set up does not work for you I would suggest that you look to your gear or it may simply be that you prefer your old set up better. If that is the case I would suggest a trial period of some weeks then switch back and see which set up you then prefer. The goal is to make the speakers disappear and for there to be a 3D sound stage with sound that is deep wide and all around the room including in front of and to the side of the speakers. With some recordings you can achieve sounds coming from behind your seating position. A good stereo set up will blow away a good surround set up any day of the week. this is where good gear and good cables interconnects digital cable and power cords come into play. For those who wish to cry bunk at this point your loss. The last set up I did like this at the Toronto CES show won five best sound at show awards. It is worth your time to experiment the rewards can be substantial. regards moray james.