Bi-Wire/Bi-Amp Large or small HT setup

[L4Z3R37H]

I Own a Pioneer Elite SC-63 receiver. I recently purchased a set of RP-250F floorstands for my front left and right channel. I use the R-10SW sub, a Polk audio RM8 Center (budget, junk) and 2 Polk RM8 satellites for surround (chose them for the bi-directional cones, and budget) overall, an introductory home theater with an adequate sound field.

My receiver has a feature called advanced MCACC, where i simply plug in the provided sensitive microphone into the receiver, place it at center listening position at ear level, and the receiver does all the dynamic adjustments for acoustics, distance, channel volumes and so on. It does a great job with the distance and channel volumes. The receiver is capable of bi-amping speakers with such an option.

I use the top poles of the floorstands with my left and right channels. (yes, I did remove the brass couplers). The receiver specifies that I use the surround-back channels to bi-amp the bottom poles of the floorstands. I'm almost certain I have this setup correctly. I've also went into the receiver menu and setup of the front L+R channels as bi-amp.

the final setup for my HT after the full automation MCACC:

Front left and right: Large, Bi-amped
Center: Small
Surround rears: small
Surround back: supplemental Bi-amped
Front high: not used
Crossover frequency: 150Hz

I have 2 LFE sub outs: I use one LFE out to the sub, the LFE is rolled all the way up on the sub, and the gain is rolled back to about 1/4-1/3 of the way from zero. (any more, and the automation complains that the sub gain is too high)

my problem:
Front channels set to large...Is this right, considering I'm bi-amping? and the crossover frequency set so high? 150hz seems high considering the capabilities of the floorstands. Also, will my rear surrounds suffer if I bring my crossover down to 80hz? I know the receiver is much smarter than me, however when I'm jamming to zepplin or frampton, I use the EX. Stereo option on my receiver. This in my opinion, creates the most magnificent sound field in my living room, but I'm afraid my satellites will suffer from the lower crossover frequency. I listen to music at moderately high, to holy shit volumes.

P.S. When I watch a bluray, Such as The Avengers, or Dark Knight rises, I aim for sharing my home theater experience with the neighbors on the backside of my property. I want to experience the Hulk, smashing.

 

[ClintonH]

Bi-Amping is not going to gain you anything, I would run them with the binding posts connected.

 

IMO you really should match your center to your LR, right now your not getting proper sound stage with a mismatched center.

 

If your running a sub your speakers should all be set to small.  You might look into running multiple subs or larger ones if your looking for "P.S. When I watch a bluray, Such as The Avengers, or Dark Knight rises, I aim for sharing my home theater experience with the neighbors on the backside of my property. I want to experience the Hulk, smashing." as you put it.

[L4Z3R37H]

I have a polk audio PSW125 down firing sub that I used up until the plate amp took a shit. I could shop for a new panel amp and use it...And in your opinion i should not bi amp the fronts, and run them at small. what do you recommend for the crossover?

[wvu80]

First of all,welcome to the forum.  Now to work. 

 

the final setup for my HT after the full automation MCACC:

Front left and right: Large, Bi-amped I would expect "Small," but not necessarily.  More later.

Center: Small  OK

Surround rears: small  OK

Surround back: supplemental Bi-amped  OK

Front high: not used OK

Crossover frequency: 150Hz [/quote  We're missing something here.

 

I don't know your MCACC, I have Audyssey on my Onk 717 AVR.

 

I agree with Clinton ^^^ Bi-amping is not going to gain you much if anything.  Just to experiment you might want to go with the standard setup, and you can go back to it later (you paid for it, I know you want to use it ) but for now, simplify.  Make changes one at a time so you'll know what's going on.

 

Your RF-250F are pretty nice.  The spec sheet says they dig down to 35 Hz.

http://images.klipsch.com/RP-250F_-_Spec_Sheet_635755791612448000.pdf

 

The Polk sub is a rather anemic 10" as you noted with a range of 32 Hz to 120 Hz.  It is possible that to balance out the bass sound MCACC decided that it needed the full range of the L/R's.

 

The one thing that throws me is the crossover (XO) point of 150.  That really sounds like the XO number refers to crossing over the surrounds, and not the sub.  There is no way those little Polk satellites are digging any deeper than that.  (spec sheet says 95 Hz) If that's the case then the number sounds right, or at least close to right.

 

As you pointed out a sub XO should be 80 Hz or close to it most of the time.

 

I'll bet those numbers are right.

Edited February 16, 2016 by wvu80

[derrickdj1]

If using 14 or 15 gauge wire, then Bi-amping or Bi-wiring will yield little if any benefit.  It's Ok to try and come to that conclusion on your own.  If the XO is high, it is based on the weakest speaker.  If with the small subwoofer, I would replace the jumpers and set all speakers to small.  If you have two subs, use them.  Upgrade subs and surrounds when possible down the road.

 

MCACC or any autocalibration is a great tool but, the better the setup, the better the results.  Try setting the XO to 100 Hz, no lower.  This may help keep the subs from being localized.  For setting up two subs: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817

[L4Z3R37H]

I did not clarify that I use 12 gauge speaker wire throughout my HT. Except for the sub RCA. 
I have been experimenting with the Bi-Amp feature, and my receiver did an excellent job trimming the channel frequencies after going back to the single amped L/R setup. There really is zero audible difference at normal listening levels. Even at higher levels where I comfortably listen to music, there seems to be a little more head room at the minor expense of a "fuller sound". which makes sense, but really isn't important. I watched JJ abrams star trek today, and with all my speakers set to small, and the sub x-over set to 100HZ, I don't seem to get any muddy transitions. My Center is a joke. My Klipsch 10" front fire sub does seem to "flubber" without the punch, compared to my melted 12" down firing Polk sub. After having both kinds of subs, I'm more impressed with a down firing sub, vs the current klipsch front firing. I intend on purchasing a new plate amp for my polk, and dual subbing.
 

[derrickdj1]

The way passive Bi-amping works: each driver gets a full signal and the excess power, mostly to the tweeter is dissipated as heat in the passive XO.  The way around this is to use an electronic XO for the tweeter and woofer.  Then time align the drivers.  use a smaller amp on the tweeter and a larger one on the bass.  I have tried vertical and horizontal bi-amping with a passive net work and after a couple of weeks, I came to the conclusion of no benefit.  But, it is OK to do it.  Why?

[wvu80]

I came to the conclusion of no benefit. But, it is OK to do it. Why?

 

We're men.  We have to figure it out for ourselves before we believe it.   

 

I have my own version of trying bi-amping for myself, all with the same conclusion everybody else has come up with. 

 

I won't bore you with the details. 

[Scrappydue]

If using 14 or 15 gauge wire, then Bi-amping or Bi-wiring will yield little if any benefit

 what does wire gauge have to do with bi-amping??

[Paducah Home Theater]

 

If using 14 or 15 gauge wire, then Bi-amping or Bi-wiring will yield little if any benefit

 what does wire gauge have to do with bi-amping??

 

 

When you bi-wire (not bi-amp), it lowers the impedance of the wires.  The question is, when exactly does it matter, even if it ever does.  I mean, bi-wiring with two 12 gauge wires gives you the equivalent of a 9 gauge wire.  But, you've already got 12 gauge wire.  So, who cares.  14 gauge probably doesn't matter either, you'd never know the difference unless it was a stupid long run.  

[Scrappydue]

 

 

If using 14 or 15 gauge wire, then Bi-amping or Bi-wiring will yield little if any benefit

 what does wire gauge have to do with bi-amping??

 

 

When you bi-wire (not bi-amp), it lowers the impedance of the wires.  The question is, when exactly does it matter, even if it ever does.  I mean, bi-wiring with two 12 gauge wires gives you the equivalent of a 9 gauge wire.  But, you've already got 12 gauge wire.  So, who cares.  14 gauge probably doesn't matter either, you'd never know the difference unless it was a stupid long run.  

 

yeah but I was not asking about bi-wiring. i was asking why bi-amping was mentioned when referring to speaker wire size.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Shouldn't have diddley doo to do with bi-amping.  You'd get the same _perceived_ benefits from larger or smaller gauge wire.  

Edited February 17, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters