oldtimer Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 How are you going to secure performance without putting them in captivity? How can they perform in captivity? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 How are you going to secure performance without putting them in captivity? How can they perform in captivity? Touche! The threat of captivity usually does the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I'm with Keith on this one. Should we up the penalty to the death penalty, then? I don't acknowledge your existence on the forum Mark, it was very pleasant without you. Please follow your 25,000 posts and disappear. Roger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The History Kid Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I feel like I have a valid post to make on this topic since I am in the midst of this. I currently have about $81,000 in student loans. I am slated to accumulate between $28,000 and $37,000 more. There is no option to pay amounts of 120 or so at a time (what my paychecks are usually...or were). They're seeking out $400-$800 at a time. College tuition costs are outrageous. Maryville's tuition with board this last year would have been $37,500 for me. SAU - where I am now and am a resident of the city - is $27,770. It isn't always as easy as just not borrowing or being able to work it all off. That being said, I don't know this guys story, but I do know of billing offices that don't notify you of debt before the collection agency calls. That practice is shoddy to say the least. And I also agree, if it is your debt, you owe it. Albeit interest on these loans is asinine. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I'm with Keith on this one. Should we up the penalty to the death penalty, then? I don't acknowledge your existence on the forum Mark Roger You just did. Knock that off... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 what a shameful place we often live in. I'm of the belief that jail should ONLY be for violent offenders. Surely we're smart enough to think of other ways to punish non-violent offenders. Pick up litter for minimum wage until you've paid off your debt; or in Bernie Madoff's case, the rest of your life plus 83 years. I wish we could get by by only putting violent offenders in prison. But what do we do with white color criminals such as Bernie? Put him to work in the oldest profession? It would serve him right in my opinion. In the context of this thread the 'character flaw' isn't a murderer. It's a debt forgotten (I'll take the gentlemen at his word until proven otherwise). BTW, we've failed to mention that there might be a statute of limitation on debt? Countries that cut off your hands are not democracies. Would you want to live in one of those? Let's hope that at some point in the future something you do wrong or accidentally doesn't have federal marshals knocking on your door. Are you 100% sure you've returned all those library books you checked out? I'd hate to see you whine on the forums about it. Some people need more then their hands cut off. I used to work on a Locked Psych ward. One guy was known for abusing little kids at his mother's daycare while he had HIV. Nobody wanted to work with this POS. But He had served his time. Later he Snatched a little boy and barricaded him and the boy in a bathroom at at a restaurant in Portland Or. This guy should have lost both hands and his middle leg for his 1st offense of abusing 10 preschool children. If someone borrows $1500 or more, they don't forget that they owe it. They hope that the person or entity that loaned it to them forgets about it. The punishment does need to fit the crime however. totally agree with this ^^^^^^^^ As previously stated, this country's jails are entirely to full and we are paying for it. I am working in a prison presently with under 3,000 inmates and the prescriptions alone are over $1,000,000 a month that you and I are paying for. We as a country, need to learn from the good sheriff of Maricopa county and make inmates do forced labor to pay for their own incarceration. Roger We need to charge these people for the cost of incarceration. If they refuse to work, don't feed them. what a shameful place we often live in. I'm of the belief that jail should ONLY be for violent offenders. Surely we're smart enough to think of other ways to punish non-violent offenders. Pick up litter for minimum wage until you've paid off your debt; or in Bernie Madoff's case, the rest of your life plus 83 years. How are you going to secure performance without putting them in captivity? What if they refuse? No work, no food. what a shameful place we often live in. I'm of the belief that jail should ONLY be for violent offenders. Surely we're smart enough to think of other ways to punish non-violent offenders. Pick up litter for minimum wage until you've paid off your debt; or in Bernie Madoff's case, the rest of your life plus 83 years. How are you going to secure performance without putting them in captivity? What if they refuse? The main problem as I see it Jeff is that Jails / prisons are way to nice a place to be for some. they have a right to have TV....Really?? If inmates were forced to work to help pay for their stay, a lot less of them would be willing to stay. Roger Agreed I don't acknowledge your existence on the forum Mark, it was very pleasant without you. Please follow your 25,000 posts and disappear. Roger Right on Roger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bella Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I always thought that a single uninhabited island in the Aleutians would suffice as a livable space for our most violent of criminals (including the 'gentleman' abusing day care children while being infected with aids). Provide the inmates with suitable building equipment (boards, rope, stone) and suitable storage for food. Only the most basic of tools to build with. Make air drops once a month to replenish supplies (clothing, food, firewood, etc.) along with a visit from a medical staff (properly armed and protected by MILITARY SPECIAL FORCES). Only the most basic of tools to build with. Basically how we used to live back about 100 years. If they refuse to conform to a modern civilization throw them back a few decades. No guards necessary; learn to survive and work together, or don't. A single coast guard ship to patrol. Any ships within 10 miles would automatically be sunk. Our Air Force in Alaska could use the target practice. No visitors allowed. No conjugal - they'll take care of that themselves surely. No T.V. no Xbox no NOTHING. No news from the outside. What they can build either physically or governmentally is fine as long as it reflects the values of a civilized society. If it doesn't burn it all down and tell them to try again. Winters would be brutal but hey, the CHOSE to be there. Mind you this would replace the death penalty. Those receiving life sentences under the 'no more death penalty' laws would be placed here. No parole. LIFE SENTENCE. Think of the money we can save and put towards useful citizens. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) I always thought that a single uninhabited island in the Aleutians would suffice as a livable space for our most violent of criminals (including the 'gentleman' abusing day care children while being infected with aids). Provide the inmates with suitable building equipment (boards, rope, stone) and suitable storage for food. Only the most basic of tools to build with. Make air drops once a month to replenish supplies (clothing, food, firewood, etc.) along with a visit from a medical staff (properly armed and protected by MILITARY SPECIAL FORCES) ... This is reminiscent of the Australia solution. If both men and women were sent there maybe after enough generations they would be O.K. The above is in the spirit of Jonathan Swift. "The quality of mercy ..." But, as everyone is saying, keep them away from potential victims. A few people self-rehabilitate. On the news tonight it was revealed that one of the most extreme and hated racists of the former South Africa has now repented and is distributing food to the poor in African villages. Also, Leopold of Leopold and Loeb (the child thrill murderers) got out of prison, moved to Puerto Rico, and worked with the Brethren Service Commission (of the Church of the Brethren) as a med tech. He later worked in a hospital as a lab and X-ray tech, earned a master's degree, taught classes, and did a variety of different kinds of research. Edited February 18, 2016 by garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 It seems the guy in the center of all this refused repeatedly to pay his loan, expecting they would forget about him. The $1700 or so in loan debt grew to around $5000 due to interest that was added. It seems since he was incarcerated he has come up with the money. Surprise, surprise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Rehabilitation. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 The past gets narrower day by day, and the cry of the frustrated middle becomes more venal, more cruel, more unforgiving for each new group to be criminalized. Theft use to be crime. And then we added drug users. And then we added debtors, and protestors, and then we added whistleblowers, and then we added computer access trespassing, downloading, and watching pursued movies as crimes. We turned the weak, the poor, the dissenters and then the young to the prison systems and with each addition the public grew meaner and more venal. They are reflecting their own fear of an ever more vicious machine coming next for them. Not once in this thread did anyone even consider rehabilitation. Rather, we want stiffer and stiffer punishment. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bella Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) Define the parameters of your plans for rehabilitation. I do not and would not ever consider rehabilitation for premeditated murder. You planned it and you carried it out. Essentially you forfeited any Rights to function in a civilized society. EDIT: But at the same time I think reason rehabilitation isn't being discussed is because it is assumed that for the lesser offenses it would be automatic. Such as driving while intoxicated - receive your punishment and then attend the proper classes and such. The punishment of course is customized whether or not damage, death, or injury was a result of the crime. But the rehab is essentially the same. Edited February 18, 2016 by Bella Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 The past gets narrower day by day, and the cry of the frustrated middle becomes more venal, more cruel, more unforgiving for each new group to be criminalized. Theft use to be crime. And then we added drug users. And then we added debtors, and protestors, and then we added whistleblowers, and then we added computer access trespassing, downloading, and watching pursued movies as crimes. We turned the weak, the poor, the dissenters and then the young to the prison systems and with each addition the public grew meaner and more venal. They are reflecting their own fear of an ever more vicious machine coming next for them. Not once in this thread did anyone even consider rehabilitation. Rather, we want stiffer and stiffer punishment. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk You should start a church. You wax eloquent. A fantasy portrayal of the world in which we live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Define the parameters of your plans for rehabilitation. I do not and would not ever consider rehabilitation for premeditated murder. You planned it and you carried it out. Essentially you forfeited any Rights to function in a civilized society. EDIT: But at the same time I think reason rehabilitation isn't being discussed is because it is assumed that for the lesser offenses it would be automatic. Such as driving while intoxicated - receive your punishment and then attend the proper classes and such. The punishment of course is customized whether or not damage, death, or injury was a result of the crime. But the rehab is essentially the same. The premise is simple: rehabilitation is possible.Program details are for experts working in the field, not me. My premise is based on the teachings of EVERY spiritual tradition in our history. Every highly respected, even worshipped, sage/priest has opined that no one is lost forever. In fact, ironically, this used to be a core value of 3/4 of the population! If we are going to take the position that criminals are on the junk heap of society, we will very soon be outnumbered and living in a walled prison as a scared minority. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 The past gets narrower day by day, and the cry of the frustrated middle becomes more venal, more cruel, more unforgiving for each new group to be criminalized. Theft use to be crime. And then we added drug users. And then we added debtors, and protestors, and then we added whistleblowers, and then we added computer access trespassing, downloading, and watching pursued movies as crimes. We turned the weak, the poor, the dissenters and then the young to the prison systems and with each addition the public grew meaner and more venal. They are reflecting their own fear of an ever more vicious machine coming next for them. Not once in this thread did anyone even consider rehabilitation. Rather, we want stiffer and stiffer punishment. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk You should start a church. You wax eloquent. A fantasy portrayal of the world in which we live. I'm just able to see a bigger picture than you. A common difference of abilities.Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Synthetic Crime In the past 15 years we have created a web of synthetic crime. Such as the Computer Fraud Act, which can make criminals out of people who don't follow TOS agreements. We can make criminals out of charitable contributions. We can make criminals out of accessing synthetic assets created through outrageous extensions of intellectual property. And then we make criminals out of whistleblowers that attempt to expose the abuse of these laws. The state is particularly going after the smart young, strapping felonies onto their backs at the lowest age possible to keep them on the fringe of society for the rest of their lives. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 The past gets narrower day by day, and the cry of the frustrated middle becomes more venal, more cruel, more unforgiving for each new group to be criminalized. Theft use to be crime. And then we added drug users. And then we added debtors, and protestors, and then we added whistleblowers, and then we added computer access trespassing, downloading, and watching pursued movies as crimes. We turned the weak, the poor, the dissenters and then the young to the prison systems and with each addition the public grew meaner and more venal. They are reflecting their own fear of an ever more vicious machine coming next for them. Not once in this thread did anyone even consider rehabilitation. Rather, we want stiffer and stiffer punishment. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk You should start a church. You wax eloquent. A fantasy portrayal of the world in which we live. I'm just able to see a bigger picture than you. A common difference of abilities.Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk You certainly wax more eloquently; I'll give you that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 The past gets narrower day by day, and the cry of the frustrated middle becomes more venal, more cruel, more unforgiving for each new group to be criminalized. Theft use to be crime. And then we added drug users. And then we added debtors, and protestors, and then we added whistleblowers, and then we added computer access trespassing, downloading, and watching pursued movies as crimes. We turned the weak, the poor, the dissenters and then the young to the prison systems and with each addition the public grew meaner and more venal. They are reflecting their own fear of an ever more vicious machine coming next for them. Not once in this thread did anyone even consider rehabilitation. Rather, we want stiffer and stiffer punishment. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk You should start a church. You wax eloquent. A fantasy portrayal of the world in which we live.I'm just able to see a bigger picture than you. A common difference of abilities.Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk You certainly wax more eloquently; I'll give you that.Ha Ha! And that's using a touchscreen keyboard!Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bella Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) Define the parameters of your plans for rehabilitation. I do not and would not ever consider rehabilitation for premeditated murder. You planned it and you carried it out. Essentially you forfeited any Rights to function in a civilized society. EDIT: But at the same time I think reason rehabilitation isn't being discussed is because it is assumed that for the lesser offenses it would be automatic. Such as driving while intoxicated - receive your punishment and then attend the proper classes and such. The punishment of course is customized whether or not damage, death, or injury was a result of the crime. But the rehab is essentially the same. The premise is simple: rehabilitation is possible. Program details are for experts working in the field, not me. My premise is based on the teachings of EVERY spiritual tradition in our history. Every highly respected, even worshipped, sage/priest has opined that no one is lost forever. In fact, ironically, this used to be a core value of 3/4 of the population! If we are going to take the position that criminals are on the junk heap of society, we will very soon be outnumbered and living in a walled prison as a scared minority. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk I would also defer to the experts. Many of which have stated that predatory sex offenders cannot be rehabilitated. Lost souls indeed; to the junk heap with them! Assuming you are not excluding murderers in your attempts to save everyone, how many times is one sent to rehab? Each time they kill a person? EDIT: and where do these rehabilitated murderers live when they are *fixed*? I've got to think next door to your family would be just fine with you? Edited February 18, 2016 by Bella Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I've got an idea. How about just paying back your 'loans'? Keith I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. I think, by carefully reading the actual thread, people are suggesting the penalty and process for not paying is mismatched for the crime. Well einstein, in the absence of a crime there is no penalty. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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