Pay Those Student Loans or Else....

[Jim Naseum]

how many times is one sent to rehab?

 

Before consulting me, have you consulted any of history's most cherished spiritual references? The answer is there.   

[Jim Naseum]

 

 

I've got an idea. How about just paying back your 'loans'?

 

Keith

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. I think, by carefully reading the actual thread, people are suggesting the penalty and process for not paying is mismatched for the crime.

 

 

Well einstein, in the absence of a crime there is no penalty.

 

Keith

 

 

Well, you don't have to be Einstein to do simple research. Here's my constructive advice to you. Use the Google, and type in "Proportionality of Punishment" and begin reviewing what intelligent people have to say on the subject. 

 

It's never too late to learn something new. Respect for lifelong learning would go a long way here. Try it out.

[BigStewMan]

i have a very liberal view of incarceration; but, i'm not so quick to blame society for every repeat offender.  Oh, i will put a good deal of blame on society -- it is very hard for a person with a criminal record to dig themselves out of that hole and reestablish themselves and a great number of "good & decent" people would rather they just disappear. You see, we're not as forgiving of a people as we like to think we are--and of course your sins are worse than mine. I have personally helped people that were refused jobs at Walmart because of a criminal record -- a result of drug involvement. People trying to rebuild their lives while paying for stupid decisions. In close contact with them, i realized how easy it is for a person to return to criminal activity--it takes a strong character to "make a comeback" when it seems that the world is now against you. 

That said, some just take a pass on rehabilitation opportunities. There is a wonderful program locally, that i'm very familiar with. They provide lodging (apartment style), food, clothing, medical care, life counseling, and job search assistance--for individuals and even entire families. I know someone that graduated from that program (was there nearly two years). After the first few months, she reported that she had seen at least 40 people come into the program and voluntarily leave the program, and return to homelessness -- they didn't like the strict rules that the facility had. 

I guess i'm saying there is enough blame to go around. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by BigStewMan

[Jim Naseum]

For starters, we are an extremely vengeful society, trained that way, by the way the society is organized. In other words, society molds it's people, and vice versa. This is why it is somewhat laughable to suggest "the country is going in the wrong direction!" It's always going in the direction the people take it! Just look at the utter lack of a "forgiveness principle" in this very thread! READ IT! It's a mirror. If there is no forgiveness, there will be no apology. You breed an ever increasing number of criminals by synthesizing new crime, and then seeking to profit from the punishment. It seems rather obvious to me, but maybe people just don't bother paying attention to it?

 

Based on posts in the Lounge many people were potheads in the era when you could get years of imprisonment and be strapped with a felony. That so many avoided it, is simply a combination of luck and privilege. "There, but for the grace of X, go I." Then, having good advantage of that luck and privilege, they turn a cruel eye to those who were not so lucky.

[Bella]

how many times is one sent to rehab?

 

Before consulting me, have you consulted any of history's most cherished spiritual references? The answer is there.

No. I'd rather explore your thought processes on rehabilitation since you introduced the subject in such a way as to accuse humanity (or at least the participants of this thread) of an injustice.

People who think passionately are to be commended because of their passion for their fellow man. I think you fall into that category, and I truly commend you for it. However, those types of thinkers often allow their emotions to interfere with logical thought processes.

So I'd like an answer to my question. Where do we house those people that have been rehabilitated? What neighborhood?

If you are true to your convictions that people can be rehabilitated then the conversation with your newly rehabilitated neighbor should go like this:

You: Hey, I just wanted to come introduce myself and to welcome you to the neighborhood.

Them: Thanks very much!

You: So where are you from?

Them: Well, I just got out of rehab. I murdered someone, again. I'm feeling much stronger now and I think I've got a grasp on my issues.

You: Great! Hey, why don't you come over for dinner tonight so we can get to know you? You can meet my wife and kids.

.

.

.

Somehow, I don't think that would ever happen, do you? So yes, I question your logic on rehabilitation because I think it is clouded by the emotions you bring due to your compassion.

But I could be completely out of the ballpark. So please, I'd rather hear from you than have you point me to the scriptures.

[Jim Naseum]

 

 

how many times is one sent to rehab?

 

Before consulting me, have you consulted any of history's most cherished spiritual references? The answer is there.

 

No. I'd rather explore your thought processes on rehabilitation since you introduced the subject in such a way as to accuse humanity (or at least the participants of this thread) of an injustice.

People who think passionately are to be commended because of their passion for their fellow man. I think you fall into that category, and I truly commend you for it. However, those types of thinkers often allow their emotions to interfere with logical thought processes.

So I'd like an answer to my question. Where do we house those people that have been rehabilitated? What neighborhood?

If you are true to your convictions that people can be rehabilitated then the conversation with your newly rehabilitated neighbor should go like this:

You: Hey, I just wanted to come introduce myself and to welcome you to the neighborhood.

Them: Thanks very much!

You: So where are you from?

Them: Well, I just got out of rehab. I murdered someone, again. I'm feeling much stronger now and I think I've got a grasp on my issues.

You: Great! Hey, why don't you come over for dinner tonight so we can get to know you? You can meet my wife and kids.

.

.

.

Somehow, I don't think that would ever happen, do you? So yes, I question your logic on rehabilitation because I think it is clouded by the emotions you bring due to your compassion.

But I could be completely out of the ballpark. So please, I'd rather hear from you than have you point me to the scriptures.

 

 

If I said, "I support the idea of going to Mars." I would not expect you to say, "Ok, pal. What's the engine design to get there." 

 

My comments on the subject were philosophical support for experts in the field to be allowed to apply that expertise. I am not ducking your question, but I am clarifying the purpose of my comment. When a society is guided by good motivations, and in my case I would call those motives, humanism, they work at finding solutions based on the ethic. 

 

The current ethic in the USA is "punishment is good, and more punishment is better." That goes against thousands of years of the best spiritual advice regarding forgiveness. In short, we are pulling in the exact polar opposite to that idea. 

 

But if pressed, I'd begin by reforming the prisons. Remove the private profit motive. Created mandatory education. Rid the prisons of corruption (by the administrations) and allow far more participation by NGOs who are willing to work in the environment. Rid the system of inhuman practice, such as solitary confinement. 

 

By rehab, I am not suggesting every murderer is released into society. But, that doesn't preclude rehabilitation efforts, and forgiveness. Right now, we are doing the exact opposite of rehabilitation. We are maximizing the cruelty of punishment. It can not yield a good result.

[BigStewMan]

This is why it is somewhat laughable to suggest "the country is going in the wrong direction!" It's always going in the direction the people take it! 

 

 

Yes, that is very true.  But, we're blameshifters extraordinaire.  We can pacify our conscience if we say the country "is going;" we've got personal involvement if we say "we're taking it."

"There, but for the grace of X, go I."

Malcolm X? judges from the X factor?     i get your point.

[Jim Naseum]

Aaron Swartz is the prime example of this punishment at all cost society. Here's a brilliant young man being punished for releasing reams of the best scientific research to the world. This was a young man of extraordinary capability and good will, and was the object of the most aggressively stupid prosecution you can imagine. He wound up taking his own life rather than face the inhumanity of years in prison. Once you see his story, you can't help but see the misguided motivations of our justice system.

Edited February 18, 2016 by jo56steph74

[Jim Naseum]

 

This is why it is somewhat laughable to suggest "the country is going in the wrong direction!" It's always going in the direction the people take it! 

 

 

Yes, that is very true.  But, we're blameshifters extraordinaire.  We can pacify our conscience if we say the country "is going;" we've got personal involvement if we say "we're taking it."

 

"There, but for the grace of X, go I."

Malcolm X? judges from the X factor?     i get your point.

 

ha ha  yes, any of those will do!

[Bella]

By rehab, I am not suggesting every murderer is released into society. But, that doesn't preclude rehabilitation efforts, and forgiveness. Right now, we are doing the exact opposite of rehabilitation. We are maximizing the cruelty of punishment. It can not yield a good result.

By advocating for rehab you must inherently include a tremendous level of trust in the individual AND demand an unreasonable level of tolerance from society. Nobody will want to live next door to any previously unstable (assuming rehab worked) member of society if they knew they were a murderer. Heck, nobody I know wants to live next door to a car thief! Do you know anyone that would be willing to? You wouldn't I'm sure of it. But for some odd unexplained reason you think someone should have to.

It is not societies responsibility to shoulder the burden of another's transgressions. That is the line that should be read at the end of each offenders sentencing hearing.

And I would disagree that we are inflicting maximum cruelty on our offenders. From what I understand they have cable TV and access to gym facilities, etc. THERE is your problem. We aren't hard enough on these scumbags in my opinion and so there is no incentive to stop being a poor member of the community.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Bella

[Jim Naseum]

Yes, that is very true.  But, we're blameshifters extraordinaire.  We can pacify our conscience if we say the country "is going;" we've got personal involvement if we say "we're taking it."

 

 

This phenomenon was explored extensively by Tolstoy in War and Peace. After Napolean's massive and decisive victory at Borodino, thereby paving the way to Moscow, Napolean was hailed as the most brilliant general in history. Tolstoy reasoned that it was false to assume his orders had anything to do with the actual victory because logically (or maybe logistically is a better word) his orders could not possibly flow through to all the soldiers (some 200,000 or so) and actually be followed. Rather, he argued, the battle was the culmination of the combined billions of actions by the hundreds of thousands of soldiers. The argument is long, and fascinating, and I can't do justice to it here, but he understood that a society was "the sum of it's actors." 

 

You hear people all the time saying, "The USA is headed to he//, and we must reverse course." That argument presupposes there is a wheelhouse and all that is needed is to jump in and turn the wheel! Ludicrous argument. The "isness" of the USA, is the combined behavior and attittude of the 315M people. You don't change that by turning a wheel, or electing a new guy to sit in an office. 

 

The only possible way to change this direction is by mass spiritual awakening.

[Jim Naseum]

 

By rehab, I am not suggesting every murderer is released into society. But, that doesn't preclude rehabilitation efforts, and forgiveness. Right now, we are doing the exact opposite of rehabilitation. We are maximizing the cruelty of punishment. It can not yield a good result.

By advocating for rehab you must inherently include a tremendous level of trust in the individual AND demand an unreasonable level of tolerance from society. Nobody will want to live next door to any previously unstable (assuming rehab worked) member of society if they knew they were a murderer. Heck, nobody I know wants to live next door to a car thief! Do you know anyone that would be willing to? You wouldn't I'm sure of it. But for some odd unexplained reason you think someone should have to.

It is not societies responsibility to shoulder the burden of another's transgressions. That is the line that should be read at the end of each offenders sentencing hearing.

And I would disagree that we are inflicting maximum cruelty on our offenders. From what I understand they have cable TV and access to gym facilities, etc. THERE is your problem. We aren't hard enough on these scumbags in my opinion and so there is no incentive to stop being a poor member of the community.

 

 

TV? No, that's not a useful concept behind understanding prison. I couldn't possibly write a treatise here that would convince you if you are beginning from that premise. I can only say, we disagree profoundly, and the disagreement is based on the actual conditions of prison. 

 

But, you do manage to confirm the idea that we want more, not less punishment. We won't be able to find any common ground on this. 

[BigStewMan]

The only possible way to change this direction is by mass spiritual awakening

yes; but, as evidenced by just a small group on this very forum, we won't even agree on what we should wake up to--let alone the entire country agree.  I know it's a rather fatalistic view.

Got to go...the boss just sent some tasking.

Later folks, enjoy your day.

[Bella]

I'm not interested in more punishment and if I conveyed that idea it wasn't my intention. What I believe in is proper punishment. I do not believe that a premeditated murderer deserves an opportunity at rehabilitation. And I don't think they should spend 23 hours a day in a box with no windows. I think they should be allowed to live out their life on an uninhabited island with like-minded individuals and given the appropriate level of tools and care to live in a manner commensurate with their Neanderthal brains. Away from society so that they cannot ever again inflict pain on an innocent being.

If that allows room for debate then I would submit it isn't me that is being inhumane or cruel, it is the objector that would prefer a solution that involves inflicting the burden onto an innocent society.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Bella

[Jim Naseum]

 

The only possible way to change this direction is by mass spiritual awakening

yes; but, as evidenced by just a small group on this very forum, we won't even agree on what we should wake up to--let alone the entire country agree.  I know it's a rather fatalistic view.

Got to go...the boss just sent some tasking.

Later folks, enjoy your day.

 

 

Oh no, I am not in any way suggesting a whole country come to some agreement. That's impossible. What I mean by a spiritual awakening is not that "rational argument ensues followed by consensus,' but rather that the irrational process of spiritual revival take root, or flower, throughout the country. It's an unpredictable process. It arises a little bit like wild fires. A 100 fires get set in the forests, and 99 are put out, while one becomes a monster super fire with no way to predict which, where or when that happens. It's a phenomenon, more than a process. 

 

The USA has experienced a few of these already in our short history. So, it is possible, even if the past experiences were not all perfect. They come about due to that effect known as "the straw that breaks the camel's back." 

[Jim Naseum]

I do not believe that a premeditated murderer deserves an opportunity at rehabilitation.

 

 

I do. And I arrive at my view through the study of our spiritual and mythological history, which generally advances the idea that redemption is always possible, and that everyone is deserving of opportunity for reform, and that the best philosophy mankind can express is endless compassion. 

 

I don't hold this position because I like criminals, nor because I have sympathy for them. I hold it because the choice of not finding compassion leads down the wrong road, usually to one of many forms of war and killing. 

 

Away from society so that they cannot ever again inflict pain on an innocent being.

If hurting the innocent is the benchmark, then what do you propose we do with soldiers, generals, presidents and others who order and participate in the killing of millions upon millions of "innocent" people?

 

Killing innocents, per se, is of course fully justified for an arbitrary group given that authority. But, let's face it, that arbitrary authority is nothing but a veil. The innocent person killed has no respect of that veil, right?

 

In other words, we have not made "killing innocent people" an absolute wrong punishable as you describe. 

[RT FAN]

Returning to the original premise of the thread, an individual borrows money to further their education & then refuses to pay it back. That can be termed theft of services or grand larceny. Under what terms should the individual who borrowed the money be exempt from paying back the loan? Which essentially results in the theft of the funds from the lender. None. Sorry, own up to your responsibilities & pay back the loan. Otherwise you should face arrest or wage garnishment. You can't tell me that the same people who refuse to make payments on their loans are not the same people who own the latest Iphone or a few flat screen tvs in their home. Seize their assets and sell them off to satisfy the requirements of the loan.

 

 Choices made result in various outcomes, own yours.

[Bella]

I do. And I arrive at my view through the study of our spiritual and mythological history, which generally advances the idea that redemption is always possible, and that everyone is deserving of opportunity for reform, and that the best philosophy mankind can express is endless compassion.

There is no sense in getting further into the debate until you affirm your beliefs by indicating that you would welcome said rehab'd individual to live as your neighbor. YOUR neighbor, not someone else's; and to meet with and interact with your family.

I firmly believe you would find that suggestion ludicrous and that the mere thought sends portions of your mind into horrific fits. Which in affect defeats your position that you hold rehabilitation to be the proper treatment of a murderer.

Admit that your logic on the issue is flawed. We all make mistakes. Then we can end this nonsense and move further into the discussion if you wish.

[Jim Naseum]

Under what terms should the individual who borrowed the money be exempt from paying back the loan?

 

Under the same terms that dozens, or even hundreds of bankers, who committed vast frauds, didn't have to pay back those gains.

 

When you create a two tiered legal system, you can't expect those in the disadvantaged tier to want to stay there. They will eventually seek the same advantage as the rich. Just saying. Justice ought to rightly begin at the top. 

[Jim Naseum]

There is no sense in getting further into the debate until you affirm your beliefs by indicating that you would welcome said rehab'd individual to live as your neighbor. YOUR neighbor, not someone else's; and to meet with and interact with your family.

 

I previously said:

By rehab, I am not suggesting every murderer is released into society. But, that doesn't preclude rehabilitation efforts, and forgiveness.

 

 

But, supposing that some murderers met some responsible rehab criteria and was released, I'm fine with interacting with them to the extent I interact with any arbitrary neighbor. In other words, "Good Morning" when taking out the garbage. 

 

Life is chock-a-block with risks. And frankly, right now, I feel patrol cops playing ' Dirty Harry Meets OK Corral' on street corners all over the area are a far higher risk to safety than some hypothetical rehabbed murderer as a neighbor.

 

But let's be more real. We don't have a rehab system, and there is no practice or experience by which we can even anticipate the level of risk involved. So, it's all hypothetical, and I return once more to my philosophical belief that redemption is always possible, and compassion is the desirable trait in a society.