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Pay Those Student Loans or Else....


derrickdj1

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Macroeconomics, chemistry, physics, humanities, advanced accounting, calculus, management, volleyball, golf, history, and about 80% of everything else I took in college just really has diddley squat to do with putting text into a database.

 

No but it makes you a better person.  A broad education is supposed to be the point of it.  It was never meant to be a job factory.

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The past gets narrower day by day, and the cry of the frustrated middle becomes more venal, more cruel, more unforgiving for each new group to be criminalized.

Theft use to be crime. And then we added drug users. And then we added debtors, and protestors, and then we added whistleblowers, and then we added computer access trespassing, downloading, and watching pursued movies as crimes. We turned the weak, the poor, the dissenters and then the young to the prison systems and with each addition the public grew meaner and more venal. They are reflecting their own fear of an ever more vicious machine coming next for them.

Not once in this thread did anyone even consider rehabilitation. Rather, we want stiffer and stiffer punishment.

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You should start a church. You wax eloquent. A fantasy portrayal of the world in which we live.

I'm just able to see a bigger picture than you. A common difference of abilities.

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And you cry insult when I accused you of being condescending after you insulted me!   Your condensension is obvious fact.

 

You are smart enough to spin a good web but don't see how entangled in it you are.  You have much more free time than myself so enjoy your time at your keyboard as you pontificate to the rest of us novitiates.  I find these threads more entertaining with your posts blocked.  

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No but it makes you a better person.  A broad education is supposed to be the point of it.  It was never meant to be a job factory.

Yes but a bunch of good people standing around quoting Nietzsche and complaining about 6 digit loans doesn't really help anything. That's where we are at right now. Colleges need to adapt or else this will just get worse.

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters
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A broad education is good but, in today's world a focus one will also work very well.  For example, a polymer chemist only spends his time focusing on one aspect of chemistry.  This is the same for most graduate programs.  There was not time to work in grad school with 24-26 credit hour loads and loans were the only way some student could make it.

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Macroeconomics, chemistry, physics, humanities, advanced accounting, calculus, management, volleyball, golf, history, and about 80% of everything else I took in college just really has diddley squat to do with putting text into a database.

No but it makes you a better person. A broad education is supposed to be the point of it. It was never meant to be a job factory.

The voice of sanity.

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Florida Coastal is one of three law schools owned by the InfiLaw System, a corporate entity created in 2004 by Sterling Partners, a Chicago-based private-equity firm. InfiLaw purchased Florida Coastal in 2004, and then established Arizona Summit Law School (originally known as Phoenix School of Law) in 2005 and Charlotte School of Law in 2006.

 

These investments were made around the same time that a set of changes in federal loan programs for financing graduate and professional education made for-profit law schools tempting opportunities. Perhaps the most important such change was an extension, in 2006, of the Federal DirectPLUS Loan program, which allowed any graduate student admitted to an accredited program to borrow the full cost of attendance—tuition plus living expenses, less any other aid—directly from the federal government. The most striking feature of the Direct PLUS Loan program is that it limits neither the amount that a school can charge for attendance nor the amount that can be borrowed in federal loans. Moreover, there is little oversight on the part of the lender—in effect, federal taxpayers—regarding whether the students taking out these loans have any reasonable prospect of ever paying them back.

 

This is, for a private-equity firm, a remarkably attractive arrangement: the investors get their money up front, in the form of the tuition paid for by student loans. Meanwhile, any subsequent default on those loans is somebody else’s problem—in this case, the federal government’s. The arrangement bears a notable resemblance to the subprime-mortgage-lending industry of a decade ago, with private equity playing the role of the investment banks, underqualified law students serving as the equivalent of overleveraged home buyers, and the American Bar Association standing in for the feckless ratings agencies. But there is a crucial difference. When the subprime market collapsed, legislation dedicating hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars to bailing out the banks had to be passed. In this case, no such action will be necessary: the private investors have, as it were, been bailed out before the fact by our federal educational-loan system. This situation, from the perspective of Sterling Partners and other investors in higher education, comes remarkably close to the capitalist dream of privatizing profits while socializing losses.

 

From the perspective of graduates who can’t pay back their loans, however, this dream is very much a nightmare. Indeed, it’s easy to make the case that these students wind up in far worse shape than defaulting homeowners do, thanks to two other differences between subprime mortgages and educational loans. First, educational debt, unlike mortgages, can almost never be discharged in bankruptcy, and will continue to follow borrowers throughout their adult lives. And second, mortgages are collateralized by an asset—that is, a house—that usually retains significant value. By contrast, anecdotal evidence suggests that many law degrees that do not lead to legal careers have a negative value, because most employers outside the legal profession don’t like to hire failed lawyers.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/08/the-law-school-scam/375069/

 

 

 

 

I feel like I have a valid post to make on this topic since I am in the midst of this.

I currently have about $81,000 in student loans. I am slated to accumulate between $28,000 and $37,000 more. There is no option to pay amounts of 120 or so at a time (what my paychecks are usually...or were). They're seeking out $400-$800 at a time. College tuition costs are outrageous. Maryville's tuition with board this last year would have been $37,500 for me. SAU - where I am now and am a resident of the city - is $27,770.

It isn't always as easy as just not borrowing or being able to work it all off. That being said, I don't know this guys story, but I do know of billing offices that don't notify you of debt before the collection agency calls. That practice is shoddy to say the least. And I also agree, if it is your debt, you owe it. Albeit interest on these loans is asinine.

 

 

 

You are going to need one of those bumper stickers that state; "I owe, I owe, so off to work I go." :wacko:

 

In the quote above, back in Nov 2014 Jeff started a thread where one aspect that was discovered was that investment banks and private equity firms had gotten entrenched on both sides of the education game where they owned schools and were lending tuition money to students and packaging those loans into securitized/collateralized debt structures that are then sold to investors.

 

It would seem that this type of situation is ripe with incentive to extend the debt of these students as far as possible and another example of financial ingenuity where Wall Street continues to find ways to make huge profits, just now on student loan debt.  An interesting aspect is that there has been practically no attention given to Wall Street’s role in the student debt run-up while Wall Street brings in an estimated $45 billion off higher education each year and a significant portion of this amount is made from student loans being securitized and sold as investments.

 

Later in the year I'll try to find time to update the numbers; however, from 2011 to 2013, the amount of debt held by recent graduates increased 20% with a total student loan debt amount over $1.2 trillion. Think about it, pickings were slim in opportunity to make big returns as the asset-backed mortgage securities (ABMS) that were instrumental in the credit crisis beginning in 2007 had cooled with investors, although the ABMS seem to have rebounded somewhat now as I see more ABMS being issued and sold, along with credit card securitizations and auto loan securitizations. 

 

Of course, with financial ingenuity wheels turning, they found a way to capitalize on student loan debt and turn that debt into big returns.  This debt is sometimes known in Wall Street circles as student loan asset-backed securities (SLABS) and they are looking for ways to grow that $1.2 trillion pie (actually $1.3 trillion in 2014 and still increasing since new student loan originations had been increasing at a rate of about $100 billion each year). 

 

Take a look at the special interest lobbying dollars in this area and you will find that the big Wall Street investment banks and other financial institutions that profit from student loan debt are spending more than ever to influence political elections and to prevent policy solutions from being enacted.

 

From 2008 to 2012 the amount of money Wall Street institutions gave to Congress through political donations practically doubled, from $55.9 million to over $108 million.  This increase can be attributed to the 2010 Citizens United Supreme Court decision, which lifted restrictions on corporate spending to influence elections. [source: Center for Responsive Politics]

 

Wall Street isn’t satisfied with the return on SLABS. So what next? It seems that financial brokers have been promoting an investment product called capital appreciation bonds (CABs).  In fact, CABs have now been issued by more than 400 California school districts and from what I have read; some have repayment obligations of up to 20 times the principal advanced (or 2,000% of the principal).

 

Still not satisfied and unable to meet certain investor demand, financial institutions are promoting public-private partnerships (PPPs) to public universities as a funding mechanism.  The private developer would provide the capital to construct facilities and the universities sign a long-term lease to occupy the space.  Sure seems like a slick way to divert public money to private debt holders who can further capitalize on the venture by securitizing the debts as another type of asset-backed security.  Historically, asset-backed securities have a unique way of spreading out and masking the level of risk that actually exits in the portfolio.

 

I’m not sure anyone has really figured out a way to understand the "quality" of all of these many types of asset-backed securities and how far out the overall risk to the financial system has been spread. According to a Treasury Borrowing Advisory Committee report, about $100 billion of federal student loans are in default, which is approximately 9% of the outstanding balances of student loans. Bottom line is that somewhere down the road, it would seem reasonable that Wall Street and these debt holders may be sticking it to education institutions, students and ultimately all of us taxpayers with another unsustainable level of debt. 

 

All in the name of “we are in the business of facilitating capital formation where it is needed,” where do you suppose this will all lead?

 

Now just where are they going to find enough U.S. Marshals to go after people that have defaulted on over $100 billion in student loan debts? :o 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Fjd
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how many times is one sent to rehab?

 

Before consulting me, have you consulted any of history's most cherished spiritual references? The answer is there.   

 

 

Are you referring to 70 x 7?

 

We may never have tried serious rehab for criminals while in prison (except for drug treatment).  If we have, can anyone refer me to a journal article (or articles) detailing the method and the results? 

 

A problem is how to tell if a person is still dangerous and how to keep the still dangerous away from potential victims.

 

Still, that's no reason to not try rehab.  We could start with the least dangerous.  Any and all should be placed in jobs after release, or there is too much danger of them offending again. 

Edited by garyrc
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Yes, 70x7 is well known in the Biblical traditions, but similar ideas are present in eastern traditions like Buddhism too.

This is just a teaser, but points to the difference in results between Europe and the US.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/11/14/some-european-prisons-are-shrinking-and-closing-what-can-america-learn

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A problem is how to tell if a person is still dangerous and how to keep the still dangerous away from potential victims.

potential victims of potential criminals?  

I actually think your question is valid; but, i think the answer to the first part is you can tell if the person is still endangering others. We’re all capable of being dangerous; but, we are dangerous when we do things that endanger others. Some repeat their crimes -- some don’t. If we assume that all criminals will be repeat offenders, then we should not spend a cent on any attempt at rehabilitation because we don’t believe in it. 

i’ve never been in jail and pray that i never will; but, the thought of living in a “one strike and you’re out” society is frightening.

Edited by BigStewMan
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Excluding the gentlemen that is the topic of this thread, there are hundreds of thousands of adults who have assumed education debt and cannot find a job in their trained fields. They end up in lower paying jobs with no possible way to pay the debt. And no way to discharge it.

I believe this is a fault with our system. We expect our young people to get educated yet we do not guarantee them employment in their chosen fields (assuming it isn't basket weaving). Much like home ownership used to be the American dream and people strived to achieve it people also strive to do better in life. But it appears it is increasingly becoming a gamble and not a sure thing.

You must be educated in something that employers need. A degree in English Literature, Sociology, History etc and a lot of similar things may get you a job teaching but that is about it. More emphasis also needs to be put on learning trades, the world will always need plumbers, HVAC repair people, welders etc.

That is a myth. If those are the only jobs you can find with those degrees, you did something wrong. I respectfully ask, as a student in one of the aforementioned fields that the myth not be perpetuated here.

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It is the lack of broad education, and particularly in liberal arts. 

 

So let me get this straight.  We have a bunch of people with useless degrees, who cannot find work that's even remotely related to what they studied, who instead work crap jobs they could have gotten without the college experience, trying in vain to pay back a mountain of debt they incurred to obtain said useless degree, which is becoming so widespread that the US Marshals are having to arrest people which apparently most people consider to be fairly shocking, and in the meantime we have a ridiculous amount of tech jobs available, with no one to fill those positions, with both indeed.com and engineerjobs.com claiming around 300,000 available engineering jobs in this country because we don't have enough qualified people...

 

and your answer is that we need more liberal arts?  

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters
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It is the lack of broad education, and particularly in liberal arts.

So let me get this straight. We have a bunch of people with useless degrees, who cannot find work that's even remotely related to what they studied, who instead work crap jobs they could have gotten without the college experience, trying in vain to pay back a mountain of debt they incurred to obtain said useless degree, which is becoming so widespread that the US Marshals are having to arrest people which apparently most people consider to be fairly shocking, and in the meantime we have a ridiculous amount of tech jobs available, with no one to fill those positions, with both indeed.com and engineerjobs.com claiming around 300,000 available engineering jobs in this country because we don't have enough qualified people...

and your answer is that we need more liberal arts?

Yes.

Most "tech" jobs require very little formal education. If 12 year old kids can code, so can 22 year olds with a liberal arts education.

As Old time pointed out, hiring practice takes the easy road of insisting on highly targeted tech degrees for the simple reason that it's a buyer's market.

I don't argue at all that at the top of technology the real inventors and scientists need all the scientific education they can pack into life. That's about 1% of the so called tech jobs. The other 99% of our university educated population can benefit the society greatly by learning history, literature, theology, psychology, art history, music, anthropology, philosophy, political science and language.

Civilization will not advance on the backs of programmers. It advances on great minds with complete educations. That's what universities were intended to do.... Advance the civilization.

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It is the lack of broad education, and particularly in liberal arts.

So let me get this straight. We have a bunch of people with useless degrees, who cannot find work that's even remotely related to what they studied, who instead work crap jobs they could have gotten without the college experience, trying in vain to pay back a mountain of debt they incurred to obtain said useless degree, which is becoming so widespread that the US Marshals are having to arrest people which apparently most people consider to be fairly shocking, and in the meantime we have a ridiculous amount of tech jobs available, with no one to fill those positions, with both indeed.com and engineerjobs.com claiming around 300,000 available engineering jobs in this country because we don't have enough qualified people...

and your answer is that we need more liberal arts?

Yes.

Most "tech" jobs require very little formal education. If 12 year old kids can code, so can 22 year olds with a liberal arts education.

As Old time pointed out, hiring practice takes the easy road of insisting on highly targeted tech degrees for the simple reason that it's a buyer's market.

I don't argue at all that at the top of technology the real inventors and scientists need all the scientific education they can pack into life. That's about 1% of the so called tech jobs. The other 99% of our university educated population can benefit the society greatly by learning history, literature, theology, psychology, art history, music, anthropology, philosophy, political science and language.

Civilization will not advance on the backs of programmers. It advances on great minds with complete educations. That's what universities were intended to do.... Advance the civilization.

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Are you really dumb enough to believe that 99% of the population can even pronounce those things, let alone study them?

 

Are you really dumb enough to believe your own drivel?

 

oops! I fed the Troll...

 

Roger

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STUDENT11-1.jpg

 

 

 

studentdebtpic.jpg

Both of these pictures lack context and there's no way to fact check them. The lady in the one picture may be paying low-toll deferred payments on those loans which usually have high interest. She would have signed off on that - it would be her own fault. Paying $14 on a $27,000 loan isn't spit in a barrel when it includes interest accrued.

The guy in the second picture, when did he go to school? How well did he perform? I went through my first semester at Maryville working 43-51 hours a week with 12 hours of class - you can not do that with research loaded courses - not only because of stress overload, but because of lab times. That semester was my lowest ranked overall with a 3.09 GPA (the only reason my GPA only went above 3.5 this year was because of the first semester). That being said, that's doable for some - and all should work. I got so irritated with many people at Maryville and some at SAU because they "just want to chill" at school - which I think is a poor work ethic and pure laziness. Community colleges are indeed cheaper alternatives, and I'd encourage people to do their gen-ed's there, but don't let anyone fool you into thinking they're free. Here, one class is $1,450 - a full semester at 18 hours is $8,700. Almost $35,000 for 2 years. And lets not even go into the finding a job that will give you full time hours, or finding the jobs that add up to 70 hours that will work well together.

Again, I'm not defending that there should exactly be a get out of jail free card. I am saying interest rates on student loans are getting ridiculous - and tuition costs are just plain stupid - especially when you know what the tuition is going to cover. Having worked intra-department for a few years, I got to hear about all of the finances going in and out. $6,000 of the tuition paid by each student was padded expense for a building that only 38% of the students would use over the next 10 years. $6,000, only 38% of the students would use it. But it gets to a point that these universities are using buildings and space as status symbols instead of pedaling education. It's appalling.

Edited by IbizaFlame
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