Pay Those Student Loans or Else....

[Fjd]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly, why should we even think about helping those pansy asses that can't stay away from the loans that they don't deserve in the first place?  Let's slap them down now before they get out of control and think they can slip out of any debt.  It sure wouldn't be fair to me, the person that paid my own way, why should those pansies get to refinance at a lower rate?  I didn't get to refinance, and that wouldn't solve anything anyway and would only serve to be taking it out of the poor investment bank's pockets and the investment banks deserve the money because of their own financial creativity.

 

 

 

Darn, it looks like higher education has nothing on the money to be made on grades K through 12.

 

"The education industry," according to these analysts, "represents...the final frontier of a number of sectors once under public control" that have either voluntarily opened or...have "been forced" to open up to private enterprise. Indeed..."the education industry represents the largest market opportunity" since health-care services were privatized during the 1970's...From the point of view of private profit, one of these analysts enthusiastically observes, "The K–12 market is the Big Enchilada." - Jonathan Kozol

 

 

I thought the above is an interesting quote and from the article below it looks like the corporations and private equity firms are invading the charter school arena too.

 

Charter School Power Broker Turns Public Education Into Private Profits - Baker Mitchell is a politically connected North Carolina businessman who celebrates the power of the free market. Every year, millions of public education dollars flow through Mitchell’s chain of four nonprofit charter schools to for-profit companies he controls.

 

http://www.propublic...private-profits

 

 

We need to laugh now while we still can.  As outlined in my SLABS post, when Wall Street investment banks and private equity grab larger and larger portions of the profits they have found in education, it would appear that this financial machine will essentially own our education destiny.  At what point will Wall Street tighten the control of how, when, or possible whether we educate our future workers and citizens?

 

Here is the formula to make millions guys, any takers?

 

Edited February 19, 2016 by Fjd

[Jim Naseum]

It is the lack of broad education, and particularly in liberal arts.

So let me get this straight. We have a bunch of people with useless degrees, who cannot find work that's even remotely related to what they studied, who instead work crap jobs they could have gotten without the college experience, trying in vain to pay back a mountain of debt they incurred to obtain said useless degree, which is becoming so widespread that the US Marshals are having to arrest people which apparently most people consider to be fairly shocking, and in the meantime we have a ridiculous amount of tech jobs available, with no one to fill those positions, with both indeed.com and engineerjobs.com claiming around 300,000 available engineering jobs in this country because we don't have enough qualified people...

and your answer is that we need more liberal arts?

Yes.

Most "tech" jobs require very little formal education. If 12 year old kids can code, so can 22 year olds with a liberal arts education.

As Old time pointed out, hiring practice takes the easy road of insisting on highly targeted tech degrees for the simple reason that it's a buyer's market.

I don't argue at all that at the top of technology the real inventors and scientists need all the scientific education they can pack into life. That's about 1% of the so called tech jobs. The other 99% of our university educated population can benefit the society greatly by learning history, literature, theology, psychology, art history, music, anthropology, philosophy, political science and language.

Civilization will not advance on the backs of programmers. It advances on great minds with complete educations. That's what universities were intended to do.... Advance the civilization.

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Are you really dumb enough to believe that 99% of the population can even pronounce those things, let alone study them?

Are you really dumb enough to believe your own drivel?

oops! I fed the Troll...

Roger

Please read what I said. I said "99% of our university educated population should study liberal arts." Not 99% of the population.

Your lack of reading ability validates my case. Thank you for that.

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[oldtimer]

Why is Bieber in the background?  That's just bizarre.

[Fjd]

 

Again, I'm not defending that there should exactly be a get out of jail free card. I am saying interest rates on student loans are getting ridiculous - and tuition costs are just plain stupid - especially when you know what the tuition is going to cover.

 

 

 

 

That was my point, but metro chose to look at the pictures instead of reading the text.  We are not even talking about forgiveness of debt, look at how the lobbying machine helped slap down the Warren bill that would allow borrowers with private student loans to only refinance the loans as federal loans.  The opponents to the bill argued, among other things, that refinancing of would not solve anything and that it would unfairly favor past students by freezing their loan interest rates.  After all, forget about refinancing, you signed up for 14% interest, you better damn well suck it up and pay it.

[The History Kid]

There are pros and cons to that I think, and I feel like I can see both sides. I'd be slightly biased in my opinion of it - but I don't really complain about my loans to boot.

On the one hand, federalizing the loans increases chances of loan forgiveness after a certain time - or debt negotiation. On the other, that means that my next door neighbor who is barely getting by, just floated the bill for my or someone else's education. It's kind of one of those "can't have your cake and eat it too" things.

I'm in a field I love, with a track to do something I'm going to enjoy. I am not doing anything I'm doing for the money, but just because it's going to be what I do for the rest of my life - I'd rather be happy. If that means I get strung out on student debt that I signed off on, so be it. I'd rather live modest and be happy where I'll be spending the rest of my life working, than rich and hating what I do.

Edited February 19, 2016 by IbizaFlame

[Fjd]

There are pros and cons to that I think, and I feel like I can see both sides. I'd be slightly biased in my opinion of it - but I don't really complain about my loans to boot.

On the one hand, federalizing the loans increases chances of loan forgiveness after a certain time - or debt negotiation. On the other, that means that my next door neighbor who is barely getting by, just floated the bill for my or someone else's education. It's kind of one of those "can't have your cake and eat it too" things.

I'm in a field I love, with a track to do something I'm going to enjoy. I am not doing anything I'm doing for the money, but just because it's going to be what I do for the rest of my life - I'd rather be happy. If that means I get strung out on student debt that I signed off on, so be it. I'd rather live modest and be happy where I'll be spending the rest of my life working, than rich and hating what I do.

 

 

 

That's great and I wish you all the success.  Regarding student loans, most here do not believe it, but the deck is stacked against the student.  Keeping personal judgments out of the mix about who deserves what, and when, what most here do not realize, or understand, is that what I'm talking about with the education system and by detailing many of the "new" financial investment products being created by the investment banks, is basically the same "business model" that relies on maximum leverage and increased risk that caused the credit crisis of 2007.  The amount of risk taking and leverage used in the housing market, the mortgage backed securities derived from it, then the synthesized mortgage backed securities when investor demand could not be met, then the collateral default swaps, etc. all created a situation of unforetold leverage and unforeseen risk.   

 

Leverage and risk has been know to be a great winning combination chock full of ultra high returns during the "boom" times; however, it is a one-directional business model where leverage becomes your absolute worst nightmare during a bust.  My point being, is that our beloved investment bankers are loading extraordinary amounts of leverage and risk upon our educational institutions, as well as our students.  Risks that will ultimately break the backbone of the system.  2,000% interest on a capital appreciation bond; come on, why don't we just give that banker a mask and a gun?

 

Of course, the magnitude is not even close to the mortgage market since the mortgage market is over $8 trillion while the student loan market was about $1.3 trillion using 2014 data.  Just for fun, let's throw in the securitizations and bond offerings of the subprime auto loan lending market at over $300 billion (out of $900 billion auto lending market) and the credit card securitization bond offerings and you wouldn't come close to the housing fiasco.  However, that doesn't mean that a lot of pain and suffering for our already burdened educational system is in the works.

 

I've been looking at this stuff way too long and I do get it, with interest rates hovering around zero percent and cash stockpiled extremely high looking for places with high returns to invest, the education system is very low hanging fruit and very easy to pick and squeeze,

[BigStewMan]

Why is Bieber in the background?  That's just bizarre.

yeah i noticed that too.  Perhaps that answers IbizaFlames’s question about the dude’s GPA.

[The History Kid]

Why is Bieber in the background?  That's just bizarre.

yeah i noticed that too.  Perhaps that answers IbizaFlames’s question about the dude’s GPA.

Funny, you took the words right out of my mind. I refrained originally as to not step on the "Belieber's" toes that we may have lurking.

[BigStewMan]

I refrained originally as to not step on the "Belieber's" toes that we may have lurking.

fine people i’m sure. 

[The History Kid]

I refrained originally as to not step on the "Belieber's" toes that we may have lurking.

fine people i’m sure.

As fine as the smooth side of a blunt rock...

[garyrc]

 

A problem is how to tell if a person is still dangerous and how to keep the still dangerous away from potential victims.

 

I actually think your question is valid; but, i think the answer to the first part is you can tell if the person is still endangering others. We’re all capable of being dangerous; but, we are dangerous when we do things that endanger others. Some repeat their crimes -- some don’t. If we assume that all criminals will be repeat offenders, then we should not spend a cent on any attempt at rehabilitation because we don’t believe in it. 

i’ve never been in jail and pray that i never will; but, the thought of living in a “one strike and you’re out” society is frightening.

 

 

Yes, we all are (probably) capable of being dangerous.

 

I would never assume that any given percentage of criminals will be repeat offenders. 

[Jim Naseum]

with interest rates hovering around zero percent and cash stockpiled extremely high looking for places with high returns to invest, the education system is very low hanging fruit and very easy to pick and squeeze,[/font][/size]

In the first couple hundred years of capitalism it was easy to find massive new markets to exploit for ever increasing capital growth. The New World, the West, India, the Far East, then the Middle East, then two World Wars, and then it started getting tough. Then consumerism has to be invented, then credit cards, then health care, then college education, and now primary education.

The problem gets worse each year. How to grow the capital by 10% while simultaneously replacing labor with automaton? Imagine an economy consisting of corporations and robots. With no work, how do growing legions of humans survive? With no customers, how do the corporations survive?

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[Paducah Home Theater]

Most "tech" jobs require very little formal education. If 12 year old kids can code, so can 22 year olds with a liberal arts education.

It can in fact be done outside of college by a highly motivated individual who truly commits themselves to it for a very long time, but that's true with most any field outside of doctors, teachers, and attorneys, whose careers are ruled by a governing board that require a certain degree. Saying an average 12 year old or liberal arts student can be anywhere near ready to code professionally in any respectable amount of time is silly, naive, and a little insulting. If this were the case, we wouldn't have so many good paying engineering jobs available with nobody to fill them. The sheer number of people going into the field would drive salaries down big time and companies would never ship people in from India.

[CECAA850]

 

Why is Bieber in the background?  That's just bizarre.

yeah i noticed that too.  Perhaps that answers IbizaFlames’s question about the dude’s GPA.

 

 

It's just a growth on his shoulder.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Colleges simply need to adapt to be more in line with the work force. I was actually a part of forming such a degree and have seen it work. I was the first graduate of Murray State's telecommunication systems management program. On multiple occasions I have met with several CEO's and faculty in providing direct feedback as to what is happening in the workforce and what skills are needed that aren't being taught, as well as what is a waste of time. We have managed to morph a mediocre electrical engineering program into a top notch telecommunication program where students learn actual usable skills that are immediately usable. The labs are outfitted with current equipment, so graduates going into the workforce are already intimately familiar with most everything from day one. Classes that for most people are useless in this field, such as calculus, were dropped.

The result of all this effort over the past 15 years is that today, it is hard to go to this school and not have a good engineering job waiting for you when you get out. That is a huge success story in my opinion, and seems to be the opposite of what we are seeing elsewhere.

[Jim Naseum]

Most "tech" jobs require very little formal education. If 12 year old kids can code, so can 22 year olds with a liberal arts education.

It can in fact be done outside of college by a highly motivated individual who truly commits themselves to it for a very long time, but that's true with most any field outside of doctors, teachers, and attorneys, whose careers are ruled by a governing board that require a certain degree. Saying an average 12 year old or liberal arts student can be anywhere near ready to code professionally in any respectable amount of time is silly, naive, and a little insulting. If this were the case, we wouldn't have so many good paying engineering jobs available with nobody to fill them. The sheer number of people going into the field would drive salaries down big time and companies would never ship people in from India.

Well, it seems you are unaware of the average age and education of the hacker and open software communities. You don't need a 4 year college degree to code. Bright kids pick it up in months. Yes, there are a few very high level kinds of programming that require extensive training. But our discussion is about 'most' tech jobs, not the rare ones.

Most people would find that kind of work boring and uninteresting, and that's why not everyone wants to do the work. Why there isn't a flood driving the wage down. Oh wait, wages have been driven down by the millions of Indians doing offshore programming.

We disagree on all the fundamentals here. That's OK. I feel extremely confident that the best minds in the world all support the reasons why liberal arts education is beneficial. I can't even imagine a world run by mere technicians with no knowledge of art, literature and history. It's a good discussion.

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[Jeff Matthews]

I'd rather live modest and be happy where I'll be spending the rest of my life working, than rich and hating what I do.

 

This is true.  The kicker is that it's a forward-looking guess.  There is nothing which guarantees you will be happy with your choice 20 years from now.  People change.  All you can do is pick what you like today, hoping you'll still like it tomorrow.

[Jeff Matthews]

 

Most "tech" jobs require very little formal education. If 12 year old kids can code, so can 22 year olds with a liberal arts education.

It can in fact be done outside of college by a highly motivated individual who truly commits themselves to it for a very long time, but that's true with most any field outside of doctors, teachers, and attorneys, whose careers are ruled by a governing board that require a certain degree. Saying an average 12 year old or liberal arts student can be anywhere near ready to code professionally in any respectable amount of time is silly, naive, and a little insulting. If this were the case, we wouldn't have so many good paying engineering jobs available with nobody to fill them. The sheer number of people going into the field would drive salaries down big time and companies would never ship people in from India.

 

 

Correct.  Coding requires a lot more than looking up syntax in a programmer's reference.  Design is important.  Logic is important.  Most serious applications are not child's play.

[Jeff Matthews]

 

 

Most "tech" jobs require very little formal education. If 12 year old kids can code, so can 22 year olds with a liberal arts education.

It can in fact be done outside of college by a highly motivated individual who truly commits themselves to it for a very long time, but that's true with most any field outside of doctors, teachers, and attorneys, whose careers are ruled by a governing board that require a certain degree. Saying an average 12 year old or liberal arts student can be anywhere near ready to code professionally in any respectable amount of time is silly, naive, and a little insulting. If this were the case, we wouldn't have so many good paying engineering jobs available with nobody to fill them. The sheer number of people going into the field would drive salaries down big time and companies would never ship people in from India.

Well, it seems you are unaware of the average age and education of the hacker and open software communities. You don't need a 4 year college degree to code. Bright kids pick it up in months. Yes, there are a few very high level kinds of programming that require extensive training. But our discussion is about 'most' tech jobs, not the rare ones.

Most people would find that kind of work boring and uninteresting, and that's why not everyone wants to do the work. Why there isn't a flood driving the wage down. Oh wait, wages have been driven down by the millions of Indians doing offshore programming.

We disagree on all the fundamentals here. That's OK. I feel extremely confident that the best minds in the world all support the reasons why liberal arts education is beneficial. I can't even imagine a world run by mere technicians with no knowledge of art, literature and history. It's a good discussion.

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You don't know too much about coding, apparently.  I would not call putting together a web page using WordPress "coding."  Not that you did, either.  However, you make coding sound like any flunky can do it.  A good coder has to grasp business well.  A good coder designs for extension.  I know a senior developer for United Airlines.  He is making $130k, plus benefits and bonus.  The bonus is expected to be pretty good, too.  Something like $20-30k.

 

He is from India.  Go figure.  So much for "cheap" Indian labor coming over here and coding for $12 an hour.

 

You must remember, we are not talking about writing software for fun or to run a lemonade stand.  If a coder makes an error for an airline ticketing system, it can be a pretty messed-up deal for everyone from the carrier to the consumer.  A small coding error can cost millions of dollars.

 

Big coding errors can cost untold sums.  How much was it they spent on the Obamacare exchange platform which didn't work when they rolled it out?  I recall something like $600 million.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Jeff Matthews

[Jim Naseum]

Colleges simply need to adapt to be more in line with the work force. I was actually a part of forming such a degree and have seen it work. I was the first graduate of Murray State's telecommunication systems management program. On multiple occasions I have met with several CEO's and faculty in providing direct feedback as to what is happening in the workforce and what skills are needed that aren't being taught, as well as what is a waste of time. We have managed to morph a mediocre electrical engineering program into a top notch telecommunication program where students learn actual usable skills that are immediately usable. The labs are outfitted with current equipment, so graduates going into the workforce are already intimately familiar with most everything from day one. Classes that for most people are useless in this field, such as calculus, were dropped.

The result of all this effort over the past 15 years is that today, it is hard to go to this school and not have a good engineering job waiting for you when you get out. That is a huge success story in my opinion, and seems to be the opposite of what we are seeing elsewhere.

Is this program needed to fill the 300,000 tech jobs you referred to earlier?

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