prodj101 Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 I was reading in stereophile the other day, and one of the reviewers for the company stated that "the way I look at it, "smaller woofers have more pop, so two ten inch woofers instead of one 18 inch would displace the same amount of air, and have more pop to them. The cabnit configuration usually doesn't effect this". Not only will 2 10 inch woofers not displace the air of an 18 inch, but an 18 inch can also have the same amount of "pop", he discribed if it is made well. 2- 10 inch woofers would have a total of 157 inches of surface area, where as 1 18 inch would have 254.34. proves that guy wrong. ------------------ Tha System Front- SF-2 Rear- SF-1 Center- SC-1 RSW-15 for the sub Receiver- Cheap Pioneer Amp for stereo Listening- Home-made tube amp 100 watt monoblocks second to top of the line sony SACD- Technics Turntable, Pioneer Turntable, Gemini Turntable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 That's the problem about subjective evaluations, no to mention his obvious lack of knowledge! How pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 You are correct in that the area of two 10 inch woofers is less than the area of an 18 inch woofer. In fact, it is not much larger than a 12 inch woofer. It is possible for a smaller woofer with a large Xmax to move more air than a larger woofer with a normal Xmax. There is a lot more to what a given woofer will do than size. What the heck is "pop"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Pop is a NSync song..... I remember hearing or reading someplace that 18" woofers are slow because of the physical mass of the speaker. That you are better with 15" etc. Remember that SVS uses 12" woofers and there is absolutely no lack of bass. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 prodj101, Cone surface is not the only factor here,one of the factors involved.Cone travel(linear please)is the second most important factor. Tell me why my Sunfire Signature with its smallish piston(cone)moves more air then many 15" woofers.Because of cone(piston)travel,it compensates with huge max linear.As well for SVS they dont use 15or even 18" monsters and yet beat most 15 and 18" in deep bass output.WHy DUH DUH and DUH move more air by moving more in and out.DOH get a clue And about the "pop",its true a well designed 12" woofer will be faster then a well designed 15 or 18". Acceleration is real and not a Walt Disney invention. Not to say a 18" is slow,as it is simply not true.However multiple 10" and 12" are prefered to a single HUGE WOOFA.Why does SVS,Aerial and REL use 10 and 12"? For fun? because Santa told them? NO And you dare call me dumb! LOL read your posts,you jump to conclusions and talk like you did just eat the knowledge of the world. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 all the more reason to get something w/ flexible bass mgmt & high power together w/ something like rf-7 or klf-30 & let those mostly pound the 2nd octave. keep the sub down around the 1st octave where it belongs. whether a great "slow" sub or a great "fast" sub. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted August 27, 2002 Author Share Posted August 27, 2002 you are a dumb arogant snob ear, "my lowliest sub" my ***. one of the most stuck up comments I've ever heard or read. By the way, if sunfires and SVS were so much more powerfull than an 18 inch, why don't you see those little boxes at rock shows? also, if you had read that review, you would have noticed the reviewer never mentions xmas, so that is not a factor in this arguement. ------------------ Tha System Front- SF-2 Rear- SF-1 Center- SC-1 RSW-15 for the sub Receiver- Cheap Pioneer Amp for stereo Listening- Home-made tube amp 100 watt monoblocks second to top of the line sony SACD- Technics Turntable, Pioneer Turntable, Gemini Turntable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Well Ear, you said you would have a digital camera by Christmas, so I am eagerly awaiting photos!!! Yes, get off your hi-horse. You don't know everything. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted August 28, 2002 Author Share Posted August 28, 2002 who get off who's high horse, me or ear? ------------------ Tha System Front- SF-2 Rear- SF-1 Center- SC-1 RSW-15 for the sub Receiver- Cheap Pioneer Amp for stereo Listening- Home-made tube amp 100 watt monoblocks second to top of the line sony SACD- Technics Turntable, Pioneer Turntable, Gemini Turntable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin B Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Well one of the main reasons more manufactures don't use larger drivers isn't because the smaller ones are faster. It's because the larger ones are a pain in the *** to ship around. It would hurt the bottom line to much to try and ship around 18" drivers in 10+ ft^3 boxes. The other is some men and most women don't like big sub boxes or tubes in the room. quote: And about the "pop",its true a well designed 12" woofer will be faster then a well designed 15 or 18". This simply isn't true, especially over the frequency range a sub covers. Why does Wilson Audio's top sub, the XS use a pair of 18" drivers in a massive cabinet? Have they purposefully designed a "slow" sub? There are many other factors much more important than cone size, that will dictate how "fast" the sub is. I'd put a Maelstrom (18") in a cabinet designed by Dan Wiggins up against any 10" sub out there, and bet money it would fair better than well in a blind comparison for being "fast". It would also have a much easier time going loud as well, and woud only require a couple 100W to do it instead of several kilowatts. TheEAR has one thing right though, producing lots of deep bass requires moving lots of air. To figure out how much air a driver can displace you multiply it's radiating surface area by the length of the drivers linear stroke. One thing to note, is, as the driver gets bigger the radiating surface area goes up very fast. Just do the math with circles (this will be close to drivers but not quite, as I am ignoring angles, surrounds, dustcaps and what not). dia - surface area (inches and square inches) 8 - 50 10 - 79 12 - 113 15 - 177 18 - 255 So a 10" driver would have to move over 3.2 times as far as an 18" driver to move the same amount of air. Even though the 18" drivers diameter is only 1.8 times larger than the 10" driver. Another thing to remember is as the driver moves farther, it needs a larger surround to allow that movement. The bigger the surround gets the more radiating surface area it looses, requiring the stroke to be even longer. Also the longer a drivers stroke the more difficult it is to keep that stroke linear and the drivers other parameters that greatly affect how it sounds in a given allignment stable. This aspect of driver design goes way over my head though. I can't say I understood it all, but this paper can get the point across even if you don't complete understand it. http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/InDepthBrahmaVsMASS.pdf It's also very difficult to keep the Fs of small extreme excursion drivers that work in small boxes low. And without a low Fs you run into some problems when trying to get them to play the last octave cleanly. You can still tune the enclosure low, but don't expect as good of results as a driver with a lower Fs (unless you are filling a tiny car cabin with bass, then it doesn't matter all that much). A tiny sub just can't compete with a big one when deep, accurate and effortless bass is the goal. While the little driver in the little cabinet is eating gobbs of power, compressing and changing critical parameters while it is flapping inches back and forth trying to move enough air, the big driver in a big box is requiring very little power and is well within an easily controlled range of motion with its' parameters stable. This message has been edited by Dustin B on 08-28-2002 at 12:31 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dustin B: A tiny sub just can't compete with a big one when deep, accurate and effortless bass is the goal. While the little driver in the little cabinet is eating gobbs of power, compressing and changing critical parameters while it is flapping inches back and forth trying to move enough air, the big driver in a big box is requiring very little power and is well within an easily controlled range of motion with its' parameters stable. Exactly. A well designed big sub will be always better than a small sub, no matter how good it is. There are several reasons for this, for one hand a small sub will always distort more. It also needs electronic circuits (like the Linkwitz transform) in order to get relatively flat to the last octave. The only advantage of a small sub is its size. Wich, by the way, is the mayor comercial advantage of the most bashed manufacturer in the world: Bose. Some people just want smaller electronics in their homes. Oh, one more thing. The MYTH about "fast or slow" divers is just that. A MYTH! A driver must be able to move at certain frequency in order to reproduce that frequency. If it doesn't move that fast, the frequency will be not there. Simply logic, nothing obscure or profound here. The perceived "slowliness" of certain subs is related to their transient responses, not to the "speed" of their driver! And this is matter of design of the box! DAMN Im tired to see how the myths are an important part of the thinking on some self called "experts"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin B Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Don't you just hate Hoffman's pesky iron law. If it wasn't for that one we could have 2" cubes with 1" full range drivers that could do 16hz-22khz +/- 1dB from a 120dB signal in a 10000ft^3 room Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Dustin, Now, that was a nice dream before you woke up!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chipp4 Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 A question I have always wondered is........why do people think home theater subwoofers should play down to 16Hz when the subs used in large theaters made by JBL, or EV etc are lucky to go down to 25Hz with two 18" drivers? I have never come out of a good theater thinking low bass was lacking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin B Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 There are a few theaters out there with very elaborate speaker setups that can do justice to the last octave (requires big bass horns). But they are few and far between. Have you ever heard a movie with appreciable last octave frequencies on a sub that can play those frequencies with authority. Movies like The Matrix, Haunting, Iron Giant, Titan AE, TPM, LOTR, SPR etc sound very different on a sub that can go to down to 30hz as opposed to one that can get down to 16hz with authority. It's a really neat sensation when they have a bass hit you can't hear but feel. There are quite a few of those in the Titan AE ice field scenes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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