GlenRasmussen Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 My best Audiophile bud has been moving his way up the B & W line, and now has a pair of 804 D series diamonds. He also has a pair of B & W DB-1 Pair, and a smaller B and W center sub. So he has the bottom end covered. He had been using the largest Onkyo Home Theater SS amp, and now has a Rotel 200 wpm amp. The soundstage diff was quite noticeable. The Rotel he has had for awhile but keeps blowing it up. He has blown previous B & W 's with the Onkyo. I was wondering about replacing his older center channel B&W with a Klipsch, his is Vertically mounted. He never hits quite the SPL for my Klipshorn ears. Any suggestion on a Center channel replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 The real problem with picking a center loudspeaker vs. the left/right fronts is timbre matching -- and that's controlled by a few things like the 1) relative frequency response on-axis, and 2) relative coverage angles (vertical, horizontal) vs. frequency (i.e., off-axis response) Trying to pick a center without being able to match the front left and right loudspeakers in these two basic areas is going to be difficult. Room correction firmware, like Audyssey and YPAO, can only attempt to match the on-axis frequency response, but not the off-axis response/coverage. Chris 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 Since the off-axis information/data for both the B&W fronts and the Klipsch center channel loudspeakers are typically not available, what you're reduced to is trial-and-error choice in Klipsch centers for timbre matching with the B&Ws. If I were giving advice, I'd try to match the diameter and spacing of the center channel woofers with the existing B&W center, and then look for the Klipsch centers that are crossed over at about the same frequencies. The Klipsch centers are all horn-loaded, whereas the B&Ws all appear to be dome drivers. This means that you're looking for the widest coverage angles that you can find -- and all the Klipsch centers appear to be 90 x 90 degrees coverage, so there really are no real choices to be made in that area. Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 I would suggest one more of the front left and right speakers (804D's?) for a center. Anything else is a compromise, sometimes compromises are necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlenRasmussen Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 Thanks for the suggestions. My Bud just Blew his left channel again on his Rotel. He tries to get to sound pressure levels that are easily attainable with most high end Klipsch. However his 804 D's are power hungry, and as per my suggestion he has set their low end cutoff at 60HZ as he has that Sub array. His center channel, a older B @ W is not very efficient as well. I was suggesting trying a center speaker from the Klipsch line when he goes into hypermode, party mode, that could be turned down during most listening to not interfere with the spacial qualities of the Diamonds. I am helping set up another outdoor indoor theater system and might be able to borrow a Klipsch center for comparison. My experiences as a long time Klipschorn guy is that as good as his diamonds sound, they lack that horn loaded Guitar and vocal sound that jumps out at you like your at the concert. Your point at matching the tibre He is contemplating a new Rotel or Bryston amp. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 If he is blowing speakers set at 60 Hz, he need different speakers. Maybe, sell the B&W's and go all Klipsch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twk123 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Timber matching and efficiency matching is very important in a center channel. Even if you level match you will usually end up turning the volume up and down for dialog parts and action parts of the movie. Depending on how far off axis your seating is, running no center is usually much better than a mis-matched center. A full Klipsch system with powerful subs would be a good move. Depending on budget the members here can get him hooked up with a great system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 My experiences as a long time Klipschorn guy is that as good as his diamonds sound, they lack that horn loaded Guitar and vocal sound that jumps out at you like your at the concert. Sounds like your friend needs to hear Palladiums, since they may be available at lower prices now. He'll never be able to fix the B&W's issues with SPL by using more power, something that the Palladiums with their refined designs relative to other floor standing HT loudspeakers sold by Klipsch can easily solve. That's their calling card, in fact. They have clearer, crisper, and more refined sound over a wider SPL spectrum than competing brands. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHASLS2 Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 I use a Paradigm Studio 490cc as my center for my B&W CM10 S2's and it does fine. Not sure about a horn center mixed with 804's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted March 5, 2016 Share Posted March 5, 2016 Not sure about a horn center mixed with 804's. The well designed horn-loaded center loudspeaker would sound much better...no doubt about that. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted March 5, 2016 Share Posted March 5, 2016 I use a Paradigm Studio 490cc as my center for my B&W CM10 S2's and it does fine. Not sure about a horn center mixed with 804's. Let me first state the majority opinion; timbre matching L/C/R is the most desirable goal. However, I'd like to speak for the minority position. I have a pair of horn driven L/R with a MTM center, a dome tweeter center. My sound is incredible, vocals and in particular dialog is crystal clear. This is an anecdotal example and I know my combination of mis-matched speakers might not work for everyone. But it absolutely does work for me in my living room. I have a counterpart on AVS.com who runs a tweeter driven L/R and a horn center, and he swears by his setup. I think the mis-matched L/C/R works best if you have a quality center speaker no matter what components are used, and "timbre matching" is overrated. The reason for this is twofold. First of all since the tweeters aren't perfectly matched there is less chance for lobing or comb filtering. The second reason why timbre matching is less important is because the L/R tends to play more musical content and the center more dialog/vocal content. They are not playing the exact same thing at the exact same time like a mono setup would. The sound while spread slightly between the three speakers is still discrete. They aren't ever going to sound exactly the same even if L/C/R were perfectly timbre matched. I know mine is the minority opinion. All I'm suggesting is for others to try thinking outside the box to see what works best in their listening environment to their ears. Quality trumps timbre matching. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHASLS2 Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Not sure about a horn center mixed with 804's. The well designed horn-loaded center loudspeaker would sound much better...no doubt about that. Chris I don't think it would do well with my two CM10S 2's. My RC 7 did fine with my RF7's, but i don't think it would mix well with my B&W's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 ...but i don't think it would mix well with my B&W's Nor do I. However a Belle or La Scala would be spectacular (i.e., horn loaded). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivervalleymgb Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 OK, so I happen to have B&W 802 Diamonds along with Klipschorns in my living room. I also have B&W 805 Diamonds for the rear that I haven't put in yet due to trying to figure out how I am going to mount them. I also have a B&W center and sub. I have been running two channel only, but because of this discussion, it may move me to set one of my Belles in the center and put the B&W center on top of the Belle and run a comparison. The only reason I haven't done it yet is moving the Belles out of storage by myself. The B&W's are not party speakers! They get as loud as I want, but not earschplittenloudenboomer like the Klipschorns. They are the best direct radiator type of loudspeaker I have owned, but they will blow if pushed too hard. They are rated for 200 watts, but they are prone to blowing tweets and mids. A pair of diamond tweeters are around $1400, so they are not cheap to replace.Anyway, sounds like I need to do some experimenting and report the results. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlenRasmussen Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 Thanks for all the replies and good advice. A quick up date on my Buds Sound situation. He upgraded the power to his 804D's a Bryston cubed amp 300 a side. Huge improvement of punch and imaging, but He has blown the Tweeters on the diamonds two times already, literally shattering them in to fragments. Obviously he is overloading them, trying to achieve sound pressure levels that the 804D's are not capable of. Remember he has a huge Great room, our prime bar/Kitchen listening range is 20', A pair of DB1 on either side and a older BW sub in the mid. He has a huge sound but on our recent friday night sound check he was pushing them hard and it only time before he pops the Tweeters again. He is contemplating the 800's at $30,000 a pair, they handle the 300 W from the Bryston, but they have the same Diamond tweeters and I think he would fractue them. He is warming up to the idea of replacing his Center channel with a separate Integrated amp and Klipsch center. He has a B&W sticker on his forehead and does not want to think of mudding his sound with K center? NAD has a 150 W per side that can be bridged mono and its own remote so he can dial in the center channel when he wants to up his SPL for the 2nd bottle of wine events. Balancing the center might be a chore, it might be trial and error. Suggestions on software and hardware to balance the timbre? of the center speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 3 hours ago, GlenRasmussen said: but He has blown the Tweeters on the diamonds two times already, literally shattering them in to fragments. Obviously he is overloading them, trying to achieve sound pressure levels that the 804D's are not capable of. Glenn, the problem your buddy has now is the same problem he had a year ago. I re-read the entire thread and the advice for your bud now is the same advice then. Chris A was pretty good with his advice early on, so was Oldtimer, and frankly Glenn so were you. I think you've got this figured out but your buddy is not listening to you. As much as he loves his B&W's they simply are not up to the demands he is putting on them. He simply can't keep throwing power at his B&W's and blowing tweeters. That's pretty much the definition of "this isn't working." I run Khorns, mis-matched MTM dome tweeter for the center, and a 12" sub. My mid-level Onkyo 717 is pushing 110 wpc and it sounds great at medium levels. When I turn it up a notch and even two notches the Khorns go from really good to freaking unbelievable, even with my mid-level AVR. It's not just that he Khorns are loud, the sound stays balanced even when pushed hard. I'm sure they have an upper limit but I've never found it. If he wants to pressurize his great room he is going to need Big Boy speakers. The laws of physics don't care about your buddy's feelings. If he wants more horsepower the best advice is to get a bigger horse. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 The guy certainly could use a different brand of speakers that can safely go to his desired listening levels. Hint, tell him what forum you are on. I have a large family room with the open concept design and have no problem filling the room with sound. It's not the money spent but, the choice in speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 15 hours ago, GlenRasmussen said: He is contemplating the 800's at $30,000 a pair, they handle the 300 W from the Bryston, but they have the same Diamond tweeters and I think he would fracture them. He is warming up to the idea of replacing his Center channel with a separate Integrated amp and Klipsch center. Glen, have you considered trying to help your buddy find a used pair of Khorns or La Scala? I know you are in Canada but here in the lower 48 states used LS go for $1500 and used Khorns go for $2500. If your buddy has the discretionary income for $30K speakers then he has enough to try the LS or Khorns. The advantage of buying pre-listened to is if he doesn't like them he can re-sell them for what he has in them. +++ Edit: I just did a quick search of used Klipsch in your area of Cornwall. There is nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K5SS Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Sounds like your bud needs some Klipsch Cinema gear.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK Thom Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 He must want some crazy volume levels to keep blowing these things up. The B&Ws are obviously the wrong speaker for his listening habits and preferences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.