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maybe tubes are not that great? I do not know! HELP!


2Bmusic

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I agree that is a well stated article.  The myth that high power is needed for Klipsch speakers has been around for way too long.  I never tell prospective "converts" how much power they are listening to until after they draw their conclusions about the sound.  Usually, I get a look saying, "you must be joking!" followed by verbal comments asking why I'm not stating how much power is really being delivered by the amps.  It's a nice way to make my point!

Maynard

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  • 2 months later...
  • 1 month later...

Well i have come full circle in a circuitous way... if not torturous. The khorns sound the best ever thanks to Sansui BA/CAF1. 

No other amp to date does it so well. I think its due to two things. TIM distortion being so low and the fact the tube slew rate is more like ±10v/microsec and not the ±200v/microsec of the BAF1.  The extremely fast reaction time of the BA / CAF1 makes a tremendous improvement in sound.

 

Looking at the specs of the most expensive amps made, only the very best of the best have such an amazingly fast slew rate.  In addition they also have  the the lowest TIM distortion.  ONE CANT DO any  BETTER than pre 1980 SS done right.  Not all SS is done right, one must be very careful. 

 

...anyway thats my take and I am sticking to it.  I think it is important to note that  the Full Horn loaded speakers ( klipschorns)  allow for  amplification methods  to be truly discerned. The super low distortion they introduce makes them the ultimate means to reproduce/ translate electrical signals

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Happy that you found amplification that sounds good to you. Personally in the world of ss I have experienced many options that significantly out perform vintage ss. But again all that matters is what you hear. Enjoy your set up! 

 

Keep on getting on! 

 

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18 hours ago, joshnich said:

Happy that you found amplification that sounds good to you. Personally in the world of ss I have experienced many options that significantly out perform vintage ss. But again all that matters is what you hear. Enjoy your set up! 

 

Keep on getting on! 

 

What speakers are you using and what Modern SS equipment?

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Probably shouldnt be posting ss stuff in the tube section...but you did ask!

I am using a Benchmark AHB2 power amp. For my line stage I use a Benchmark DAC2 and for phono a George Wright tube preamp. The Benchmark is a joint venture between THX and Benchmark. Not that I think Stereophile is the end all but it was rated a class A product by them. Sitting among other amps costing 50x more - for real! Enjoy the music has given it many awards including their 20/20 which is for the the 20 best products in the last 20 years. Again the other products awarded cost many many thousands of dollars more. Google it and you will see lots of accolades from professional audio ( Benchmark is primarily a pro audio co) to virtually every audiophile publication and on line resource. In regards to Stereophile - benchmark does not advertise so that angle is moot. In regards to speakers, I am using joseph audio RM33XL 's In the past I have owned Cornwalls, Belles, RF711's among others.

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So I don't guess you have heard Sansui or Kenwood's best thru Full Horn speakers?

Have you listened to Full Horn speakers ?   ( not just horns at the top and non horn at bottom) 

Have you heard the speakers by which all instruments were analyzed? Those were the Snell Type A....

 

The Benchmark amp is one of the few I would even consider keeping based on specs. Never heard it.  I have listened to 150,000++  systems in both tube and SS... in various cities and various room treatments. To me, my system makes them sound like something is missing.  A good Tune ( on of many)  to test  any system is Bela Flecks flight of the cosmic hippo. Try it!

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On 4/7/2016 at 6:05 PM, wdecho said:

From the master,

 

 "What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier" (Paul Klipsch).

 

Since the beginning of amplification single ended triodes have been acclaimed as the ultimate in sound reproduction. If the low 5 or 6 watt SET's are not good enough for our 100db speakers exactly what kind of speaker are they good for. The highly acclaimed SS designer Nelson Pass has devoted a considerable amount of his time trying to duplicate the single ended triode tube sound with SS devices. Audiophile reviewers worldwide still acclaim SET as the ultimate in sound reproduction and all other forms of amplification is judge on how it compares to the SET. 

 

There are still people that believe OJ did not do it or the world is not round. It does no good to argue with them.

 

You have to be the judge of what sounds good to you and buy what you think is best. What I have just said is just cold hard facts. What anyone hears is not reality but our own interpretation of it. When someone works hard for their money they should be able to spend it as they choose to not by what anyone else says. 

Someone else can recall what push pull tube amp OEM used. I infer he listened at lower spl and did not listen to rock \ blues.

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 I won't comment on PWK's statement. However he did talk about head room. and how while listening at 2 watts, certain passages would require 15 watts.  Great sounding reproduced music requires 30 to 40dbm of dynamic range.  5 watt SET got no  A** for that! 

 I have gone the SET route. And the above statement is real life.  Khorns are very full at 1 watt as indicated on the BAF1 VU meters. But certain passages do indeed 10~14 watts maybe a bit more.  A/B 'in my SET and then 125 watts of the best of the best SS from the 70's ( verily an amp that if built today would cost ~~8 to 10K)  there is no comparison. Tubes do sound good and yes better than lesser SS. BUT NOT BETTER THAN TOP SHELF SS.  

One of the many reasons is how fast the amp responds. Good amps respond at > 100/ microvolts per second.

 

The best tube amps I  know of are only 10 to 20 microvolts/ second. That is VERY slow. At that snails pace they are getting in the way much more so that Top shelf SS. 

 

Great SS amps > 190 microvolts / second. When playing horns, by their very nature they are fast. The is one of the reasons GREAT SS sounds so good on the MIGHTY K horn. That horn loaded woofer has no equal!  ....and you can not get that on 5 watts!   In addition at 5 watts Tubes are 1 to 3% distortion where as  GREAT SS is .005%

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It all comes down to the matter of listening level.  I periodically hang out on a European audio site where the participants, of necessity, have much smaller listening rooms than are typical here.  And, in addition, their listening levels are much lower.  When they read US based forums on which folks brag about their typical 105-110 db listening levels (in their huge rooms) they laugh and cringe simultaneously.  I share their view that such listening levels are not the least bit enjoyable, and also negate differences between amplifiers by presenting such a massive wall of sound that it doesn't much matter what a person uses.  For example, one of the guys on there has LSs which he powers with a Decware Zen Triode (roughly 2W max.).  When you figure that at a rough 7 foot listening distance from them 10 milliwatts will provide a spl of around 81 db, headroom is certainly not going to be an issue (I've built many amps for guys using both LSs and CWs in near-field systems).  Bringing slew rate into the discussion really isn't valid as it is just a variant of the ages old SS vs. tube debate.  Lastly, at 5 watts output, distortion from a tube amp can be well below 1% depending on the design.  And, as has been demonstrated in countless blind listening tests, having a thd of .005% will not guarantee that a listener will prefer it over an amp with 100X that amount!


Maynard

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I AGREE with Wdecho. I had a Nelson Pass F6.  It was ok. 25 watt Tube amp did sound better, than the F6.  There is nothing special about F6 and other first watt offerings, when compared to state of the art SS that is no longer made except for a few examples. AND THEY ARE SUPER expensive.... only because they can get away with it.  Even those who listen to the Pass 30.8 say the first watt stuff is not in the same league. 

 

Again until one listens, like I have to Klipshhorns with top shelf SS attached, they do not know what they are missing. 

When one talks of this or that amp, this or that speaker, its makes for interesting reading.  But it is impossible to say that this or that amp or this or that speaker  sounds better. Not everyone hears the same. Not everyone has the same tastes. Some have never played Music or been to performances.   I played first chair trumpet in Concert and stage band setting. My teacher was the same guy that taught Al Hirt and Doc Sevrensen. I know what music sounds like in a real setting. I have listened to just about all of the major brands of SS and Tube and speaker systems. They all sound very good. To me they do not come close to the full and distortion free sound of Khorns & SS.  This is for me, YMMV!   So make the effort. It has taken me 4 years and many miles. Go listen to all combinations. You will be amazed at the differences! 

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