2Bmusic Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) I have been reading everything I can find on Valve and xistor amps. These articles gives one to think tubes really really are not as good as transistors for the many reasons he says. I do not know. What do you folks think? I am not looking for feelings, more on a fact finding mission. Personally I lean strongly to tubes. When I graduated from electronics school transistors were just in their infancy. ( a hint of my youth or lack there-of) http://sound.westhost.com/valves/valve-trans.html part 1 http://sound.westhost.com/valves/valve-trans2.html part 2 please give thoughtful answers. I need an amp for my khorns. I had an F6. It was ok, a little better than my yamaha 1030 HT amp. But not thousands better. The next step/ choice would be the Pass xa30.8 I just hate to spend that much money. At least if I get the 30.8, I can rest assured that it does not get much better. What makes this so difficult is so many say, "this amp or that sounds just like valve amp". Heck just buy a valve amp and be done with it! MY BIGGEST CONCERN IS that when it comes to tubes these days, good ones will be hard to come by. And the thought of having to replace every 1 to 4,000 ( one to three years) hours is damn scary! I was thinking about trying the Quicksilver Audio Horn Mono's. They seem custom made for KHorns! http://www.quicksilveraudio.com/products/hornmono.html Edited March 21, 2016 by 2Bmusic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) Well I'm no Audiopile like others on here. I have some S/S but run tubes on the music system at present. Others will have more informed OPINIONS Edited March 21, 2016 by Taz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Forget what you read and believe what you hear with our own ears would be my advise...in reality there is plenty of tube and SS gear that sounds great...tubes do thing SS can't and SS does things tubes can't.... It's all about trade offs and what is impotantbto YOU and YOUR ears! Trust your ears! 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I like Rod Elliott and usually agree with his assertions and technical reasons for making them. However, his opinions are not necessarily the last word. As others have said above, you need to use your ears and draw your own conclusions. As to tube longevity, it all depends on the circuit design. I can easily get 15k to 25k hours from output tubes (and these are often radio/tv types which cost less than $5 each, which makes having some spares more than affordable). So, if you see an amp which claims that the life expectancy will only be 1k hours, I'd look for something else. Since you have an electronics background, have you considered just building your own amp? That is certainly the most cost effective route and allows you to do lots of experimenting without incurring a large expense.Maynard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Bmusic Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 For those who want to participate in this discussion, please take the time to read ESP's take on tubes. ( links are above) important to read that stuff.... Hi Maynard, I am glad you read what Rod Elliot has to say. Thanks for the reply. Also, do you realize that ROD thinks SET are not hifi at all and should be relegated to clock-radios and the like? I put that post together at 1am. I had been reading all day for two days. I was very tired and unable to put the rest of my thoughts down. So here are some more concise thoughts. 1. YES those are Rods opinions. Logically they make sense, but how is one to know how biased they are? 2. TODAY, one has to buy and ship back trial equipment. NOT fun! more to come, heading off to work... POINTS TO PONDER! interesting stuff http://kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes-sound-better.htm this is opposite of ESP! Now you might understand my conundrum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 If you own high sensitivity speakers, low power via tubes (or ss a la First Watt) is an available option to pursue. Don't let Rod Elliot discourage you, but learn what you can from what he says. It's often more informative to pay attention to the critics than the fanboys when forming your own opinion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 As said above, it's about what works for you. Like many things in audio there is no A/B or anything like it that will reveal useful info. You have to live with it and you'll either find that, after a period of time, you like one or the other better or don't and the "why" will be hard to quantify if not impossible. I believe that the mix of clinicality/transparency of SS and the clinicality/transparency of horns is one too many. As much as an argument can be made for "merciless transparency" have at least one side a bit relaxed in that are makes a lot more good, but perhaps not world class recordings much more enjoyable. The number of recordings one can not tire of when played through equipment providing the most absolute accuracy science and skill can provide is very, very small. For that reason, I prefer tubes with Heritage speakers. Dave 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krispy Kirk Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I ran my Forte II's on nothing but solid state amps for nearly 20 years. Then one day I tried an all-tube Class AB push-pull amp and got hooked. Today I can't decide which I want more: that indisputable bass "slam" of good solid state, or that ineffable "sweetness" and air of good tubes. So I the amp I currently use has both: it's a hybrid integrated amp with a tube pre-amp (12AX7) in front of a transistor (MOSFET) power amp in a single chassis. You can have it all! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I noticed in your profile that you have one of the amps that Justin Weber sells. Is there something about its sound which you find unsatisfactory when driving your LSs? Maynard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Bmusic Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) Maynard, I much MUCH prefer the Khorns over the LaScala's. My Khorns have the back enclosed so I have more options for placement. The Big Ben sounded great on the LS. It really did.... HOWEVER, Base was completely absent when compared to the MIGHTY Khorns! I have found that the khorns really come alive with more than 4 watts. The Quicksilver Audio Horn Mono's are designed by an Electrical Engineer ( Mike) for our horn speakers. 25 watts each should do great. Since they are push-pull AB, the bass will be tight as well. Mike also explained in technical terms how with transistors vs tubes.... that valves really are the best way to amplify audio. Thanks to all who have contributed. I am ordering the Horn Mono-blocks today from Quicksilver audio. Edited March 22, 2016 by 2Bmusic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Ah, I didn't realize that you already had the K-horns! Well, the Quicksilvers seem to offer a lot for the money. Here are some measurements which Atkinson made on them: http://www.stereophile.com/content/quicksilver-audio-horn-mono-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#WHPzLKdxeyf3fMbG.97 They look very good. In fact, the extremely low output impedance they offer is impressive. I'm sure they will sound terrific! Be sure to post your impressions of how they sound with the K-horns after you have a chance to listen for a while. It seems that over time we're getting more and more reasonably priced tube equipment which works very well with Klipsch speakers. That's gratifying for someone like me whose early experiences with Klipsch spseakers were solely tube based. Maynard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 HOWEVER, Base was completely absent when compared to the MIGHTY Khorns! You attributed lack of bass to the difference in speakers not the difference in amps correct? I have a Stereo 15 amp from Justin on a pair of Cornscallas and there is absolutely no lack of bass there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Tubes = Loudness Button Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Air is BS, I've heard it and it means something is being added into the mix that isn't there in the recording. Tubes are not that great, but it is personal preference and a good tube amp is just as worthy as a good ss amp if you enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Bmusic Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 HOWEVER, Base was completely absent when compared to the MIGHTY Khorns! You attributed lack of bass to the difference in speakers not the difference in amps correct? I have a Stereo 15 amp from Justin on a pair of Cornscallas and there is absolutely no lack of bass there. lack of bass ( base) ( bass looks funny... like the bass fish...) is because LaScalas low freq cut off is around ~ 40 hz and starts at~ 50. This is because they were purposed for loudspeakers more than to be used as a means to play High Fidelity music. They sound good, don't misunderstand. BUT... When compared to Khorns.... well they don't compare in the realm of HiFi music reproduction. Your Cornscallas will certainly have better base than LaScalas. The folded horn of the Khorn takes BASS to the next level. Have you listened to Khorns set up with good equipment ? When I did, I could not believe my ears. Far better than the Snells of old. SNELLS were reference quality used to determine if this violin or that piano was up to speed. They were used for chamber music reproduction. That is not easy to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Bmusic Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) Air is BS, I've heard it and it means something is being added into the mix that isn't there in the recording. Tubes are not that great, but it is personal preference and a good tube amp is just as worthy as a good ss amp if you enjoy it. If you are referring to the air in tubes, please allow me to at least add my slant. The electrons in a tube move at close to the speed of light.... or about the same speed at which they move through a conductor. When they move through a solid state device ( xistor) they move through what are called "holes". This takes time and that is why you have hysteresis in SS. Also the trace curve of a SS device does not rise and fall in the same place on both sides. Again hysteresis. This actually means that and because transistors hold a charge, they are not as kind to music as tubes are. Engineers do numerous things ( like feed-back) to help solve this problem. Long story short.... that thing you want to hear with transistors but you do not, and that sound you want to hear with tubes and you do is because of this effect I just described. How do I know this. I got it from an Electrical Engineer that have been building Great sounding HiFi for over 40 years. Another thing that I learned was that quality of transistors today are not like the ones of old. This fact is born out as one of the reasons NP spent almost 1/2 million bucks for his stash of superior SS devices. As for something added in the recording... MANY MANY OF THE BETTER recording studios USE TUBES!!!! Many Musicians prefer tubes. They know how the music sounded when they played it. They more often than not choose tubes to get as close as they can. Edited March 22, 2016 by 2Bmusic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 I've always felt that tubes on top of tubes as you describe and as a musician am well aware of adds unnecessary extra distortion from how the music sounds live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Bmusic Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 Ah, I didn't realize that you already had the K-horns! Well, the Quicksilvers seem to offer a lot for the money. Here are some measurements which Atkinson made on them: http://www.stereophile.com/content/quicksilver-audio-horn-mono-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#WHPzLKdxeyf3fMbG.97 They look very good. In fact, the extremely low output impedance they offer is impressive. I'm sure they will sound terrific! Be sure to post your impressions of how they sound with the K-horns after you have a chance to listen for a while. It seems that over time we're getting more and more reasonably priced tube equipment which works very well with Klipsch speakers. That's gratifying for someone like me whose early experiences with Klipsch spseakers were solely tube based. Maynard Thanks for that Link! Looks like some truly wonderful tunes will soon be wafting though the air in Rayne Louisiana! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) 2B....I have the Quicksilver Audio Horn Monos running 6550 tubes. You can also use KT-88, KT-90, EL-34, KT-77, KT-66 with no adjustment. The QS are self biasing and very reliable. I am using the same ones I bought 6 years ago. I am also using a QS Full Function preamp from the 90s. Edited March 22, 2016 by Tarheel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Power amps and the like are one subject. Not addressed here. But I still wonder about the chain of electronics e.g. microphone amps, mixers, etc., which were used to produce recording, in history, we admire or maybe less so. This is all low level processing. Over the years the equipment is tube or transistor, operating in Class A. The equipment uses capacitors and sometimes transformers which are subject to love and hate. But that is what we've got just before the signal is stored and distributed, by any number of means. For example, you can say that tubes or transistors or caps are good or bad in my pre-amp. Yet the signal has probably been processed through multiple stages of equipment using the devices which are praised or vilified. That can't be un-done. As an extension, do we really think that a pre-amp is going to do more harm or good than all the proceeding ones? It can't cure anything. If here is one last stage of small amplification using similar devices and topology in our living room, how much can we hope to accomplish? WMcD 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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