Jump to content

G


Axz Hout

Recommended Posts

If we are just talking about music and two channel, the only reasons you even need a sub are either your mains are not full range, or you listen to pipe organ recordings.

 

I use a subwoofer(s) to supplement the bass I already have coming out of my full range speakers. It's two-channel only and only going down to 30hz. I don't want any 'rumble'.....just added headroom from 30hz up to 100hz. It's not because I'm a bass freak but the concept of additional headroom at these frequencies just flat out makes the music sound better as long as you don't get carried away with the gain on the subs.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I browsed the article quickly and assumed these tests were done in a controlled environment.

 

Most of our rooms are not great places to run these type of tests.

You talking about the Harman article?

 

Yes

 

Their conclusions are just how it is at this point, all the top room designers are following these principles. Nobody's just putting one sub in one position in a room and calling it good on nicer builds. REW has a room simulator, you can punch in your room dimensions, seating position, sub position(s), and see the effect that multiple subs can have in smoothing out response between different seating positions. Read up on Floyd E. Toole's latest rants on the subject.

 

Room simulation hardware is probably a nice too but it could not be 100% accurate unless it can compensate for miscellaneous furniture located throughout the room, rugs, room treatments and the like. 

 

Any respectable subwoofer will cause things to rattle and shake, meaning it may not be the sub itself you hear but objects or even the room itself causing distortion making it easier to identify where the low frequencies are coming from.

I don't see how objects rattling in a room would lead to subs being able to be localized. If anything, in a normal room with a small number of normal subs up front, it is your back wall that is the loudest and would vibrate stuff the most. How would objects rattling behind you lead to you being able to localize the subs that are sitting up front? I've got this going on at my place, have a rear sconce light that rattles, and if they really get going, part of my rack in the back rattles.

 

Things start to rattle with very little power in my systems, i cannot see how you could not include these noises in any localization.

 

Rattles and like noises appear more obvious the closer they are to your subwoofer depending on volume of course.

 

If the volume is high and the whole room is vibrating that is different altogether having no merit to the subject.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Room simulation hardware is probably a nice too but it could not be 100% accurate unless it can compensate for miscellaneous furniture located throughout the room, rugs, room treatments and the like.

It's accurate enough to make you realize that with a certain configuration in a certain room, you will probably have an obnoxious peak, a null that looks like the Grand Canyon, and probably the exact opposite if you switched seats. Rugs don't fix that. Multiple subs spread around the room does though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Room simulation hardware is probably a nice too but it could not be 100% accurate unless it can compensate for miscellaneous furniture located throughout the room, rugs, room treatments and the like.

It's accurate enough to make you realize that with a certain configuration in a certain room, you will probably have an obnoxious peak, a null that looks like the Grand Canyon, and probably the exact opposite if you switched seats. Rugs don't fix that. Multiple subs spread around the room does though.

 

 

 

I use 2 F20s in my setup. It does not increase the quantity but does increase the quality probably due to the above.

 

 

 

I browsed the article quickly and assumed these tests were done in a controlled environment.

 

Most of our rooms are not great places to run these type of tests.

You talking about the Harman article?

 

Yes

 

Their conclusions are just how it is at this point, all the top room designers are following these principles. Nobody's just putting one sub in one position in a room and calling it good on nicer builds. REW has a room simulator, you can punch in your room dimensions, seating position, sub position(s), and see the effect that multiple subs can have in smoothing out response between different seating positions. Read up on Floyd E. Toole's latest rants on the subject.

 

Room simulation hardware is probably a nice too but it could not be 100% accurate unless it can compensate for miscellaneous furniture located throughout the room, rugs, room treatments and the like. 

 

Any respectable subwoofer will cause things to rattle and shake, meaning it may not be the sub itself you hear but objects or even the room itself causing distortion making it easier to identify where the low frequencies are coming from.

I don't see how objects rattling in a room would lead to subs being able to be localized. If anything, in a normal room with a small number of normal subs up front, it is your back wall that is the loudest and would vibrate stuff the most. How would objects rattling behind you lead to you being able to localize the subs that are sitting up front? I've got this going on at my place, have a rear sconce light that rattles, and if they really get going, part of my rack in the back rattles.

 

Things start to rattle with very little power in my systems, i cannot see how you could not include these noises in any localization.

 

Rattles and like noises appear more obvious the closer they are to your subwoofer depending on volume of course.

 

If the volume is high and the whole room is vibrating that is different altogether having no merit to the subject.

 

 

 

I find that things rattle throughout the house so it would not help me localize the subs.

 

 

 

If we are just talking about music and two channel, the only reasons you even need a sub are either your mains are not full range, or you listen to pipe organ recordings.

 

I use a subwoofer(s) to supplement the bass I already have coming out of my full range speakers. It's two-channel only and only going down to 30hz. I don't want any 'rumble'.....just added headroom from 30hz up to 100hz. It's not because I'm a bass freak but the concept of additional headroom at these frequencies just flat out makes the music sound better as long as you don't get carried away with the gain on the subs.

 

 

 

For those who are saying subs aren't needed, even with my K-horns there is material in music (not lp, digital recordings) missing without a good sub. Note how much keyboard is below 35 HZ. My bass trombone will play well below that, not to mention a double bass with an extension, contra-bassoon, tuba, etc. And most speakers are quickly running out of steam at their low cutoff anyway, so a solid tone at 35 HZ on a K-horn is not really happening.

 

Phys_img024.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A better question is how big and what shape is your room?  A single great sub beats 2 lesser subs in the same room.  Its a matter of opinion but unless the size of your room or the shape and size of require more than one sub for coverage...  well then your are just spending more $ for at best another 3 dB and at worse, you may loose actual bass via canceling waves.  Typically you are better off playing with the placement of a single good sub, before considering 2.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A single great sub beats 2 lesser subs in the same room.

Call up SVS, ask them if it is better to get one PB-13 Ultra, or two PB-2000's. They'll tell you to get two of the lesser subs.

 

Its a matter of opinion but unless the size of your room or the shape and size of require more than one sub for coverage

It's all about the math behind modal issues rather than coverage like with your mains.

 

your are just spending more $ for at best another 3 dB and at worse, you may loose actual bass via canceling waves.

You have it backwards here, two subs actually smooths the response out better than one. When there is a null with one, and there will be, a second can fill in the gap. If there is any cancellation going on, assuming you set things up properly via phase/delay/placement, it will be on the obnoxious peaks, which is a good thing. Four subs smooths things out the best. One is about the worst in this regard.

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Things start to rattle with very little power in my systems, i cannot see how you could not include these noises in any localization.

At some point maybe you need to fix the rattles. :) I use REW and go through my room 1 hz at a time and get rid of the things by moving the object, tightening it, adding mass, any number of things. I was doing sweeps that was hitting over 120 db the other day and I've got like 3 things that rattle at that volume, all of which are on the back wall. One was a sconce light which I can't fix and may require some fireproof foam or some crap, one was the rack panels itself which will require some Dynamat, and one was just a temporary pile of screws sitting on my desk. There shouldn't be tons of rattling going on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Things start to rattle with very little power in my systems, i cannot see how you could not include these noises in any localization.

At some point maybe you need to fix the rattles. :) I use REW and go through my room 1 hz at a time and get rid of the things by moving the object, tightening it, adding mass, any number of things. I was doing sweeps that was hitting over 120 db the other day and I've got like 3 things that rattle at that volume, all of which are on the back wall. One was a sconce light which I can't fix and may require some fireproof foam or some crap, one was the rack panels itself which will require some Dynamat, and one was just a temporary pile of screws sitting on my desk. There shouldn't be tons of rattling going on.

 

Already taken care of as much as possible.

 

One of my subs (Table Tuba) fires into a corner or wall and the other fires into the floor THTLP, your subwoofers are different so results may vary.

 

I could move into a lead lined concrete bunker as well but that's not going to happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

A single great sub beats 2 lesser subs in the same room.

Call up SVS, ask them if it is better to get one PB-13 Ultra, or two PB-2000's. They'll tell you to get two of the lesser subs.

 

Its a matter of opinion but unless the size of your room or the shape and size of require more than one sub for coverage

It's all about the math behind modal issues rather than coverage like with your mains.

 

your are just spending more $ for at best another 3 dB and at worse, you may loose actual bass via canceling waves.

You have it backwards here, two subs actually smooths the response out better than one. When there is a null with one, and there will be, a second can fill in the gap. If there is any cancellation going on, assuming you set things up properly via phase/delay/placement, it will be on the obnoxious peaks, which is a good thing. Four subs smooths things out the best. One is about the worst in this regard.

 

 

I think jacksonbart was speaking of quality of sound and not room nulls and frequency response, in that regard i wholeheartedly agree with him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unless you are crossing your subwoofer over at a higher than normal frequency i call bullshit on the whole stereo subwoofer myth.

 

Yep.  If you need two, it's because your actually running a "submidrange."  That's were this myth comes from.  One of our members runs his in the NEXT ROOM!  And visitors are amazed at the bass.  If you have full range speakers good to at least 50 hz (c1 octave) then your sub should crossover accordingly.  My k'horns good to c1 itself (32hz) are crossed over to my Cinema F-6 accordingly.  There is no directionality and if you think their is you are audiohalluncinating.  I have a reputation for not claiming to know what others hear and I stick to it...but in this case science is on my side and I have never had a guest who even knew a subwoofer was in use (it's cleverly disguised as a bar) much less heard directionality. 

 

Wouldn't trade my sub, and dang sure wouldn't want a second one of these monsters in the listening room!

 

Now, you HT folks using less than 8 octave fronts...all best off as your are into the mid range which is, by definition, directional.  Heck, you may need 4! 

 

Dave

Edited by Mallette
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any respectable subwoofer will cause things to rattle and shake, meaning it may not be the sub itself you hear but objects or even the room itself causing distortion making it easier to identify where the low frequencies are coming from.

 

Any respectable subwoofer at 16.5 hz and realistic level (c1 on a 32' organ pipe) will cause things to rattle in the garage (personal report from the PAW)!  Don't think you'll be able to figure out where it's coming from...

 

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Any respectable subwoofer will cause things to rattle and shake, meaning it may not be the sub itself you hear but objects or even the room itself causing distortion making it easier to identify where the low frequencies are coming from.

 

Any respectable subwoofer at 16.5 hz and realistic level (c1 on a 32' organ pipe) will cause things to rattle in the garage (personal report from the PAW)!  Don't think you'll be able to figure out where it's coming from...

 

Dave

 

 

Don't listen to pipe organ music myself but if you hear things in other rooms rattle before objects near your sub you are in good shape.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Between Harmon and Geddes the debate on the need for multiple subs has been well proven.  Two subs are better than one and 4 subs will give the best FR.  Sure things rattling can help localize a sub.  Subs in the rear of a room can be easier to localize because they are not near other active speakers like the mains and center channel.

 

Room auto EQ is great but, optimal setup helps tremendously.  It can compensate FR for objects in the room or in the path of some of the speakers in a multichannel system.  DSP does so many things in the time domain to correct small things that eventually add up to a large impact on the sound in a room.

 

I am still amazed everytime I EQ the subs to a darn good FR and verified by Omnimic and then use Pioneer's standing wave correction.  The results are close to a night and day difference and I don't use this type of talk of audio forums.  The sound is cleaner, sharper, subs hit harder, ect.  At the end of the day, we are all facing room issues due to space, aesthetic, WAF, room construction issues, ect.  So, we do the best that we can with the system and room and most of us will find a happy compromise.

Edited by derrickdj1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't listen to pipe organ music myself but if you hear things in other rooms rattle before objects near your sub you are in good shape.

 

Given my preferences I keep things pretty solid in the music room.  Rarely listen in the garage...

 

 

 

Between Harmon and Geddes the debate on the need for multiple subs has been well proven.

 

Two guys have proven what untold thousands know to be BS for a properly designed subwoofer?  I don't read papers that defy what is clear already.  Just because somebody proves that sprinkling holy water on your turntable will eliminate static isn't likely to get me to call a priest.  However, the bottom line is as always: whatever you think you hear is what you hear and I will not try to prove you aren't hearing it.

 

In my case I cannot locate a 32' point source in a church, a hall, or in any listening room where the sub doesn't extend into the mid range so the point is moot.  I've had my sub right behind the sofa before and have only had a few say "You MUST be using a sub!  Where the hell is it?

 

Dave

Edited by Mallette
Link to comment
Share on other sites

whatever you think you hear is what you hear and I will not try to prove you aren't hearing it.

It's science and easily provable. Nulls exist. Peaks exist. These things change when you change seating positions. You can easily predict them with math. If you aren't good with maths then there are multiple online calculators such as on Bob Gold's site. If you don't know how to use that, then REW has a nice little graphical interface where you can drag and drop stuff around. The calculators are more or less spot on. Has nothing to do with pseudoscience, we aren't elevating speaker wires here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Don't listen to pipe organ music myself but if you hear things in other rooms rattle before objects near your sub you are in good shape.

 

Given my preferences I keep things pretty solid in the music room.  Rarely listen in the garage...

 

 

 

I normally just listen in the garage when I'm working.

 

The KG-4's and Table Tuba are in my room where i spend most of my time actually listening.

 

Once my La Scala type clones are done i will do some more adjustments rotating things where they sound best.

 

Even considered selling my KG-4's to fund my trip to Hope but still on the fence about that, may just have to miss another year unless some business comes my way. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's science and easily provable. Nulls exist. Peaks exist. These things change when you change seating positions. You can easily predict them with math.

 

Crikey, MLO, if provable why a life long experience of never hearing directionality in anything in the C0 octave range?  Math?  So, if I look at the calculations I'll suddenly be able to determine the precise location of a 32' pipe when organ builders of a lifetime experience can't? 

 

I think I'll just stick with what my ears tell me and most of us...

 

As I said, if you can pinpoint the source of C0 octave sounds then you need to fix it with as many sources as you can afford.  Otherwise, just enjoy...

 

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you have full range speakers good to at least 50 hz (c1 octave) then your sub should crossover accordingly.  My k'horns good to c1 itself (32hz) are crossed over to my Cinema F-6 accordingly.  There is no directionality and if you think their is you are audiohalluncinating.

I think some of us are mixing up home theater and two channel listening here. Yes for two channel you can probably get away with crossing over at 32 hz. For movies, you can't even cross the LFE channel lower than 80 hz on most receivers, they won't even let you. Even if you could, it's not recommended to even set it at 80 (which is the minimum) much less at 32, you'd basically be throwing away tons of the LFE channel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Crikey, MLO, if provable why a life long experience of never hearing directionality in anything in the C0 octave range?  Math?  So, if I look at the calculations I'll suddenly be able to determine the precise location of a 32' pipe when organ builders of a lifetime experience can't?

C0? That's what, 16 hz? You're talking about frequencies that are way lower than where you'd typically see problems. See post 39.

I'm not even talking about localization, I'm not sure where that came from. Having multiple subs in a room is to fix room mode issues, not make things less localizable. It's not the same thing.

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...