derrickdj1 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Two channel and HT are two different animals altogether. A nice 2 channel room can be setup without auto EQ or a sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Two channel and HT are two different animals altogether. A nice 2 channel room can be setup without auto EQ or a sub.What fun would that be?[emoji39] Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/history-of-multi-sub-sfm Toole wrote that like a week ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Crikey, MLO, if provable why a life long experience of never hearing directionality in anything in the C0 octave range? Math? So, if I look at the calculations I'll suddenly be able to determine the precise location of a 32' pipe when organ builders of a lifetime experience can't? C0? That's what, 16 hz? You're talking about frequencies that are way lower than where you'd typically see problems. See post 39. I'm not even talking about localization, I'm not sure where that came from. Having multiple subs in a room is to fix room mode issues, not make things less localizable. It's not the same thing. Perhaps I muddied the waters a bit with my localization related comments. My room had big peak and null issues... a single sub made it even more obvious even though I was willing (and tried) to set it anywhere in the room. I also was willing to place my seat just about anywhere. Tube traps help but not enough. I probably didn't try enough different configurations but that takes a lot of time. I'm thinking that in my case it is better to have NO sub than just a single. A couple of low profile HT tubas might be fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 For movies, you can't even cross the LFE channel lower than 80 hz on most receivers, they won't even let you. We're getting there! I made an exception for HT above. C0? That's what, 16 hz? You're talking about frequencies that are way lower than where you'd typically see problems We're there... My point was precisely that. Music listeners who need that lowest octave (C0 runs from 16.5 to 32 hz) have speakers good to at least 50 hz and aren't going to roll off their mains...at least I don't. My sub is tuned as close as I can get to 32hz and below and at least to my ears and others who've heard the system it and the K'horns can't be distinguished. If there is an issue it is with an individuals definition of "subwoofer." For music folk, it's always in the non-directional low end. I won't deny that some of those other issues you raise may deal with room mode issues, but I've not heard anything in my system to suggest their is a problem to solve and if you don't mind l'Il pass on looking for one. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 If there is an issue it is with an individuals definition of "subwoofer." For music folk, it's always in the non-directional low end. Technically, anything that is truly below 100 hz and especially 80 hz isn't really directional. The problem is the crossover slope which isn't a brick wall, plus the LFE channel which can be much higher. Even setting it at 80 hz with a typical 12 db/octave slope will have stuff like 140-170 hz floor toms and bass guitar harmonics coming through your subs at least somewhat. These things are directional. I like my subs up front because of this due to watching concert blu rays quite a bit. You'd have to be 2-channel only and have a really low crossover point like you do for this to never be an issue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Technically, anything that is truly below 100 hz and especially 80 hz isn't really directional. We're in agreement, and I crossover much lower than 80... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) I very much prefer stereo bass, but the problems with room modes would have me sooner go mono if the modal situation required it. In other words - fix the frequency response first, but if you can add stereo then it's a minor plus. It really depends on the source material. Localization and Directionality are two different concepts. I would also posit that the localization that matters is not related to our classic hearing mechanisms. In other words, localization of bass is different when listening on headphones versus listening to speakers. Most of our sensation to low frequencies happens in our chest cavities. There is also the issue of distortion products that are there even with an infinitely steep xover. Edited March 30, 2016 by DrWho 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) Also, if anybody is interested, Mark Seaton is doing a class on the benefits of and how to set up multiple subs, at Axpona, Friday night. Any skeptics are welcome to show up and tell him how he is full of crap. I'd almost pay to see such a thing. Read the first post. https://www.facebook.com/SeatonSound/?fref=ts Edited March 30, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I would not mind going to Axpona to check out some systems but the last thing i would want to do is listen to a bunch of direct radiating speakers of any type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 Seems like sum subwoofer salesmen on this thread. Cheers. Here is their advice, forget your room, buy more subs. Well go for it. Cheers to all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 (edited) But they are in my opinion full of that brown stuff that smells like it came directly out of their butts, cause its a conflict of interest, they want your money first and that influences their advice. Listen to your ears, but to be honest, subs are tough, better to actually address your room and experiment with the placement. Now someone will quote this and say I have all this wrong... and will propose you spend buy some more. How could they be wrong..?? well they can be... Cheers. Edited April 2, 2016 by jacksonbart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 It seems clear from my limited experience 2 is better than 1 and ive never sold a speaker or sub ever. Clearly there are issues more easily resolved or unresolvable without a 2nd sub. In an ideal world every speaker would be perfect full range no need for subs but that world doesnt exist here. So we make due and find solutions to our general issue of sub location and clarity and then for each individual room. Nobody is against anybody we all search for solutions and have some verbal combat along the way. All good fun, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) But they are in my opinion full of that brown stuff that smells like it came directly out of their butts, cause its a conflict of interest, they want your money first and that influences their advice. Listen to your ears, but to be honest, subs are tough, better to actually address your room and experiment with the placement. Now someone will quote this and say I have all this wrong... and will propose you spend buy some more. How could they be wrong..?? well they can be... Cheers. If you think all this is BS, I'm just curious how you would get rid of the predictable 82 hz null below, or if you'd even know it was there, which you probably wouldn't to be honest. Also curious as to what you believe a better solution to the DSP issue shown here, which is that the predictable 38 hz peak was brought down so much, the 68 hz mini-null was brought up so much, and several other bands was used enough that the DSP started clipping and took a nose dive below 15 hz and just got worse if you tried to fix it. Also curious as to how you would keep a few seats over from sounding utterly and completely different even if you could move the sub around to fix some of it, which is about your only hope. The thing is, when just sitting in a seat and playing random program material, you'll never notice lots of this stuff. The whole "trust your ears" thing just doesn't make any sense. Post up your measurements in a sweep, that's the only way to be scientific about it. Multiple subs have been proven to fix this stuff. Has nothing to do with selling more subs. If it were about profits, SVS wouldn't be telling you to get two cheaper subs rather than one PB-13 Ultra. Think about it. It costs more to ship, they get less revenue, just makes no sense from a financial standpoint, yet they recommend this. Edited April 3, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Seems like everybody who runs one of these big horns are very satisfied using just one subwoofer. The sound difference is so dramatic over direct radiating types most are content as is plus more refrigerator size cabinets are sometimes not an option anyways though if there is a will there is a way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 SVS also claims there is such a thing as stereophonic subwoofers. >link< Try to purchase goodies made here in the USA folks, you are just shooting yourself in the foot doing otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 The thing is, when just sitting in a seat and playing random program material, you'll never notice lots of this stuff. The whole "trust your ears" thing just doesn't make any sense. Post up your measurements in a sweep, that's the only way to be scientific about it. Although I've never measured anything in my system in this manner, I agree this makes the most sense. I would like to try it someday soon. What measuring equipment would you recommend for a vintage two-channel system? It includes multiple subs, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Have a computer Scott ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Have a computer Scott ? Yep.I have a DEQ2496....I'm aware of REW....I'm also aware of those 2x4 mini dsp thingies. Just wondering which one would be the most ideal in a vintage 2.2 system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 I was recommended this a while back. Heard there was an available phone app as well using a calibrated microphone but have not looked into it at all so not 100% sure, may be worth looking into that as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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