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[Paducah Home Theater]

What measuring equipment would you recommend for a vintage two-channel system? It includes multiple subs, of course.

 

 

Nearly everybody is running REW nowadays, tons of support.  The most popular microphone is MiniDSP's UMIK-1.  Cross-Spectrum not only keeps them in stock but also provides very accurate calibration files that go down to 5 hz, from three different angles.  Basically for $100 you can get a real nice setup that's as powerful and accurate as you'll ever need.  REW also does waterfall graphs so that you know how to set up your acoustic panels and fix issues with ringing and whatnot, plus a bunch of other stuff.   There is a sine wave generator so you can do like I mentioned earlier, go through your room 1 hz at a time and isolate rattles.  

 

http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umik.html

Edited April 3, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Paducah Home Theater]

Seems like everybody who runs one of these big horns are very satisfied using just one subwoofer.

 

The sound difference is so dramatic over direct radiating types most are content as is plus more refrigerator size cabinets are sometimes not an option anyways though if there is a will there is a way.

 

So horns are immune to room nulls, peaks, and other issues related to room modes?  I've yet to see a graph that was even remotely flat looking when using a horn.  Would love to see one.  

[jason str]

 

Seems like everybody who runs one of these big horns are very satisfied using just one subwoofer.

 

The sound difference is so dramatic over direct radiating types most are content as is plus more refrigerator size cabinets are sometimes not an option anyways though if there is a will there is a way.

 

So horns are immune to room nulls, peaks, and other issues related to room modes?  I've yet to see a graph that was even remotely flat looking when using a horn.  Would love to see one.  

 

 

Never said that.

[jason str]

Scott, this is the mic for the phone.

 

For the minimum cost it is worth a try.

[SWL]

 

What measuring equipment would you recommend for a vintage two-channel system? It includes multiple subs, of course.

 

 

Nearly everybody is running REW nowadays, tons of support.  The most popular microphone is MiniDSP's UMIK-1.  Cross-Spectrum not only keeps them in stock but also provides very accurate calibration files that go down to 5 hz, from three different angles.  Basically for $100 you can get a real nice setup that's as powerful and accurate as you'll ever need.  REW also does waterfall graphs so that you know how to set up your acoustic panels and fix issues with ringing and whatnot, plus a bunch of other stuff.   There is a sine wave generator so you can do like I mentioned earlier, go through your room 1 hz at a time and isolate rattles.  

 

http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umik.html

 

That's cool. I guess I got a bad taste in my mouth because back in the earlier days of AVR's that had calibration mics they never suited my tastes for the way I wanted  it to sound and I always would change it back to the way I wanted to hear it. Same is true with a lot of what I read. A guy will set up with Audessey or whatever and end up tweaking it to the way he wants to hear it anyway.

 

I'm thinking that proper measurements are in order as a starting point and then tweak it from there....and maybe that is the whole point because I can't see the measurements being the final result but it will give a solid indication of what's going on in your room. So, I suppose I ought to just shut the hell up and get out there and purchase a mic, huh?

[Paducah Home Theater]

I guess I got a bad taste in my mouth because back in the earlier days of AVR's that had calibration mics they never suited my tastes for the way I wanted  it to sound and I always would change it back to the way I wanted to hear it. 

 

Those microphones are junk.  Kind of two different issues though.  

[Paducah Home Theater]

For a good visualization, here is a neat step by step documentation of setting up a high end theater with multiple subs.  Lots of before/after graphs each step of the way.  

 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1633729-six-6-seaton-submersive-install-exceptional-service-mark-seaton-2.html

[jacksonbart]

Basically, buy a few subs from dude from Kentucky,,   Top Notch!

[Paducah Home Theater]

Which of these graphs do you think would sound better?  They are a measurement of subwoofer response, going seat to seat.  One has a single sub in a corner.  The other has four subs, one in the middle of each wall.  "Trusting your ears" is basically saying just go with graph #1 since you don't know any better and can't recognize 55+ db swings.  

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[jason str]

Which of these graphs do you think would sound better?  They are a measurement of subwoofer response, going seat to seat.  One has a single sub in a corner.  The other has four subs, one in the middle of each wall endpoint.  

 

 

 

 

 

The grey line looks best.

[derrickdj1]

Look, the bottom line is measuring will benefit a horn or direct radiator sub period.  REW has a 90 + pages of instruction or you can go back and forth with support on AVS.  Omin mic cost a bit more but, no instruction book needed and you can be up and running in 20 min. taking measurement and getting on with fixing things.  An Ommi mic and Mini DSP with work with a 2 ch system.

Edited April 4, 2016 by derrickdj1

[DrWho]

My room is my horn.....I don't need to add random caverns to ruin the same result

[DrWho]

Which of these graphs do you think would sound better?  They are a measurement of subwoofer response, going seat to seat.  One has a single sub in a corner.  The other has four subs, one in the middle of each wall.

 

 

In the graphs you posted, the one with four subs in the middle of each wall will sound bad.....the issue is both systems are bad.

 

If we want to talk ideals, then let's not discuss which is the least worst. There are solutions that yield a perfectly flat frequency response in all seats.

[Islander]

Here are my personal experiences with subs.  Nearly twenty years ago, I bought my first sub, for my bedroom system.  Believing that "bass is hard to localize", I bought a single sub and placed it under my bedside table.

 

It was so obvious that the bass was coming from one side of the room that within a month I bought a second matching sub for the other side of the bed.  That made a really big difference.  I still have both of them in the bedroom.  Part of the issue may be that having a mattress in the middle of the room absorbs a lot of bass energy, making it impossible for the bass to fill the room.  In that case, a single sub will not do the job, unless maybe it's beyond the foot of the bed, and probably elevated off the floor.

 

In the living room, I used different logic.  Thinking in 2-channel terms, the bassist is part of the band, so the sub should be between or at least near the main speakers.  After some experimenting with various locations, the sub wound up between the mains, closer to the left one.  This is working out very well.

 

Most bass instruments produce higher-level notes at the same time as the intended bass note.  The player's fingers on the strings, the valves or other hardware in a pipe organ, and so on, make sounds that may well come through the main speakers and give some sense of the location of the instrument, while the sub gives the "feeling" of the instrument.  It's easy to locate the instrument as being in the front of the room, and that's good enough for music.  Unless it's a multi-channel Pink Floyd concert, all the music comes from the stage.

 

For movies, where the sub is needed to reproduce the sounds of machines or explosions, which could come from anywhere in the soundfield, it would make sense to have more subs, to have surround sound in the low bass as well as the rest of the frequency range.  However, most movie directors want to direct your attention to what's on the screen, with rare exceptions, so you don't often have explosions occurring behind you.

 

To sum up, in my opinion, in a typical living room situation, you only need one sub for music, and while it might be great to have several subs for watching movies, you can get by just fine with one.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Islander

[Paducah Home Theater]

In the graphs you posted, the one with four subs in the middle of each wall will sound bad.....the issue is both systems are bad.

 

If we want to talk ideals, then let's not discuss which is the least worst. There are solutions that yield a perfectly flat frequency response in all seats.

 

 

Dr. Earl Geddes, Dr. Floyd E. Toole, Mark Seaton, John Dahl of THX, top room designer Dennis Erskine, multiple top dogs at Harman including Todd Welti and Kevin Voecks, Anthony Grimani... all believe that multiple subs is what you need for this issue and I'm not in a position to argue with them.  Other than maybe a truck load of bass traps, I don't see how else you could accomplish what you are saying with a single sub in a home theater environment with several seats. 

[CECAA850]

Other than maybe a truck load of bass traps, I don't see how else you could accomplish what you are saying with a single sub in a home theater environment with several seats.

 

 

I can't speak for doc but I don't believe he's talking about a single sub set up. 

[Scrappydue]

Basically, buy a few subs from dude from Kentucky,,   Top Notch!

why?

[DrWho]

 

Other than maybe a truck load of bass traps, I don't see how else you could accomplish what you are saying with a single sub in a home theater environment with several seats.

 

 

I can't speak for doc but I don't believe he's talking about a single sub set up. 

 

 

Correct. However, I'm not talking about randomly distributing subs throughout the room either. We can name drop all day long, but the performance is what matters at the end of the day.

 

Maybe all those experts need to read up on this simple concept:

http://www.nubert.de/downloads/optimierung_der_tieftonwiedergabe.pdf?PHPSESSID=qctxokyy

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/837744-double-bass-array-dba-modern-bass-concept.html

[derrickdj1]

Most people will not find using DBA cosmetically acceptable, especially in the living room.

[CECAA850]

Most people will not find using DBA cosmetically acceptable, especially in the living room.

 

It certainly wouldn't bother me, but I guess I'm not most people.  I couldn't do it in my living room though as my rear wall is all book case and shelving.