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boomy bass


jvert

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Recently purchased a pair of Bob Crites style B Cornscalas. The mids and highs are fine but the bass is driving me nuts, very boomy and muddy. I recently had a pair of Spaitial audio m3's in here and the bass on those was fantastic. The bass was tight, deep and articulate but wasn't crazy bout the mids and highs.  The Spaitials  have two 15" woofers per side and I didn't have any bass issues at all so it kinda makes me think it's not the room. I've tried at least a dozen different positions with the scalas and nothing seems to help. Filling my room up with bass traps is just not gonna happen. Does anyone out there have any experience with these speakers or this issue? If it wasn't for the bass I'd totally dig these speakers but right now the bass is unbearable!! My source is a VPI Classic I've used a 300b amp a Marantz 2270 and a Red dragon audio Amp, no improvement!! Thx!

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Is it possible to experiment with tone controls(if unit has them) and dial back the bass EQ?  When I had my Marantz 2252B, I had to back off the bass a bit because of boundary gain with a pair of Heresys in my spare bedroom.

 

Bill

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You probably need bass traps in two room corners if you intend to keep the CSs--your choice.

 

I'd also recommend installing Room EQ Wizard on your computer and running a sweep at your listening position to understand what is happening.  To equate a lack of need for acoustic treatment to issues with your loudspeakers only is probably not going to solve your problems.  Why did you get rid of the prior loudspeakers?

 

The bass bins are coupling to the room's boundaries well, which is what they're supposed to do.  Booming bass is the first compliant that's usually heard.  The CS's large vented bass box is neither horn loaded, nor a sealed box bass, so any rise in midbass response that couples well to the room's modes will sound boomy because of box-port dynamics.

 

Pictures of your room and loudspeakers are really needed in order to fully understand your problems.

 

Chris

Edited by Chris A
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Just because the Spaitial Audio M3 have 15in woofers doesn't mean they can be compared with the CS with 15in woofer and thus your conclusion that the room isn't the issue is misguided.

The real difference in your specific situation is the Spaitial M3 is an open baffle design and couples with the room modes differently than the CS design. Polars will be much different between the two.

Obviously by your description the Spaitial M3 have a good synergy with your untreated (room modal frequency region) resulting in less muddy/boom coloration.

Your options to use the CS in your room means placing them in locations that least excite the problem room modes. Bass traps and to a limited degree some EQ application might help but from what you posted bass traps aren't an option.

Good Luck,

miketn

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The Maranz is the only one with tone controls, could give it a shot. Got rid of the other speakers bc I wasn't happy with the mids and highs they just didn't sound natural to me. The room is very odd shaped with tall 18-20 ft ceilings which open up to 400 sq ft loft and adjacent kitchen so volume is quite large. So Chris you are saying it's a midbass issue not bass? I have the cs's on 2" casters, would sitting them on the floor make a difference?

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I dig your taste in gear, everything seems well thought out,  from your tube amp, the VPI, Marantz, the Cornscalas and the Spatial M3's with the Red Dragon amps, which i have also heard.  I listened to them at the Show Newport this past year and I really liked them.  I almost considered getting a pair as well as I loved their unique modern look. As already said, one of the open baffle design qualities is to not interact with the room in the same way that a box speaker will do. Have you had any other speakers in your room and did you get better bass with them?  Is the Cornscala sealed or ported? 

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So Chris you are saying it's a midbass issue not bass? I have the cs's on 2" casters, would sitting them on the floor make a difference?

 

"Boomy" implies frequencies above 70 Hz, IME, which are controllable using corner-located bass traps.  I've found them to be extremely effective in controlling boom.  In fact, if you place a 4" thick 2' x 4' corner bass trap above the CSs in each corner, you will probably find that they are too effective.  You can "squash" the bass trap against the corner by moving it left or right a little to reduce its contained volume, and therefore its effectiveness.  See my profile for a picture.

 

Using 2" castors underneath the loudspeakers won't do much except decouple the boxes from the floor. I don't see much to gain either way with the castors.

 

Understand what I'm saying above: what you are experiencing is a difference in the time domain performance of the bass bins vs. what you had.  Helmholtz resonators (i.e., a vented and ported box) will not sound like open baffle, horn loaded, or sealed bass.  I particularly dislike the sound of bass reflex boxes, and the only way that you're likely going to change the sonic signature is to introduce absorption in that frequency band to reduce room RT60 at the offending frequencies.  The CS tuned box is probably like the Cornwall, so it's tuned to about 40-45 Hz.  The ports don't have much effect above 100 Hz, and will kill all your bass below about 30-35 Hz, relative to a sealed box.

 

I recommend thinking about horn-loaded bass (La Scala, Belle, Khorn or Jubilee) or perhaps sealed bass (Heresy) to regain the tightness and smoothness of response if the bass traps don't take out the extended bass response times.  You might also think about adding sealed or horn-loaded subs below 100 Hz to avoid the issue altogether.  You probably still will need to think about acoustic treatments, however.

 

Chris

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My cs sound best about 4-5 feet from the back wall.

 

What this does, effectively, is to give you a frequency response null at about 62 Hz (1/4 wavelength) that will partially address the boom issues.

 

Using corner bass traps will be a more broad-band way of addressing the issue, without introducing additional modulation distortion due to the bass bins not being close to a room boundary.

 

Chris

Edited by Chris A
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I remember growing up in San Fernando Valley and Cerwin Vega had a factory on Tujunga Ave. in North Hollywood and people used to go crazy for them boomy boxes. Down the Street a bid further on the corner of Tujunga Ave. and Sherman Way, was James B. Lansing factory. Much better speaks IMO. Good ole days.

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I've tried at least a dozen different positions with the scalas and nothing seems to help. Filling my room up with bass traps is just not gonna happen. Does anyone out there have any experience with these speakers or this issue? If it wasn't for the bass I'd totally dig these speakers but right now the bass is unbearable!! My source is a VPI Classic I've used a 300b amp a Marantz 2270 and a Red dragon audio Amp, no improvement!! Thx!
I'm really sorry you're having those kinds of problems with such excellent equipment.  Although I don't have much experience with those components, I haven't noticed problem boominess from the 1 or 2 Cornscala I've heard.

 

What is the shape of your listening room?  Are any staircases involved, either up or down, from your listening room?  Is it possible to insert a room diagram in a post?  What cartridge are you using?

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