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HK, Integra, Audyssey, whats going on?


chambers1517

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My theater is completed. It is 28x17. I spent a lot of time on acoustic panels. Two rows of seating. The front wall has 3 lascalas built into it and also has 4 18" subs in an IB configuration. I have 2 side and 2 back heresys. I have a scope screen above the speakers and I have a Sony h40 projector with a lens. I also bought an Integra 60.5 reciever so i could get audyssey x32 for the subs. It took about 3 years to purchase everything and build the room. The picture is awesome and the sound is good. I have an old HK7200 upstairs that I use to power a pair of Klipschorns. They are in the living room and it is pretty much the same dimensions as the theater. I was listening to music on day in the theater trying to figure out the best surround mode for music. I think I settled on THX ES. It sounded better than stereo. I listened for a while and went upstairs to listen to the same music on the Klipschorns. I was extremely disappointed with what i heard. I took my wife down to the theater and played the music and then to the living room. She smiled big and said her room sounded much better than mine. I said i know. I said I have 7 speakers, 4 subs, room treatments, and Audyssey and her living room blows it away. I figured it had to be the Klipschorns or my design had a major flaw. this bothered me bad. I tried a lot of different things but it never sounded much better. One day my Integra went out and I took it in for repair. I took the HK to the theater until the Integra came back. Hooked everything up and balanced the speakers and wow, it was better than the living room. The surrounds were much more alive on movies and the surround feeling was just there. I couldnt believe it. The HK doesnt have HDMI so everything was plain Dolby. My wife asked what I had done. The Integra comes back and I put it back in and the dull lifeless sound was back. I turned Audyssey off and it was actually worse. I hooked the Integra preouts to the HK direct input for the amps. Still sounded bad. I had a friend bring an Onkyo 818 over to make sure the Integra was working right. It sounded like the Integra. So I have a $2400 avr with all the bells and wistles that sounds terrible. I have an outdated avr without HDMI that sounds great. What should I do and why does the old HK sound so great?

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What should I do and why does the old HK sound so great?

 

I had a 7200 and loved it.  I eventually went to separates and sold it.  The HK is a beast with a nice sound.  I can't speak to the SQ of the Integra or Onkyo though.  I believe the same company makes both products so they'll no doubt sound the same.  Maybe you're just used to the HK signature?

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Maybe you're just used to the HK signature?

 

I was thinking the same thing.

 

I have owned Onkyo/Integra gear for quite some time(9 years) and have found them to be dead on neutral.  No warmish or bright tone.

 

Bill

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The front wall has 3 lascalas built into it and also has 4 18" subs in an IB configuration.

You got my attention now ...  That's exactly where I'm headed with my HT.  :D

 

 

 

why does the old HK sound so great?

I have always loved the sound of HK with Klipsch.  My last receiver was an HK 3600 (great receiver) and currently use an HK3490 in the 2ch setup.  The HK does have a different sound than Onkyo / Integra.  To my ears, the HK has better separation of musical instruments. 

 

We all would love to see some photos of your setup / setups. 

Edited by Youthman
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I haven't personally heard the newer HK receivers, but from reviews I've read online, they don't enjoy the same reputation as the older models.  

 

My father has used the same HK receiver since the mid 90's and its still running like a champ and sounds great.  

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I had Onkyo and Yamaha in my system and while they sounded OK

they don't sound like my Harman Kardon--I ended up selling the others

even though they Did have more bells and whistles.

Now I have one in use and a new one in a box for back up.

The H-K to me--sounds much more dynamic and clean.

Edited by rebuy
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Thanks, Ill try to get some pictures up. I have some from during construction. The entire bottom of the front wall is covered in speaker cloth so its hard to see whats behind it. My ceiling is black and the carpet and the walls not covered by panels are dark eggplant. My screen is a Dalite Highpower. The room is very dark even with lights on and any kind of flash makes the screen light up like a spotlight.

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I too miss the HK sound.  I was a HK lifer until last year.  Just had too many problems, with too many of their products.  I lost track of how many avr's lost, I think 4.  I still have my 2600 in the garage.   I wish it had DD PLIIz I would put it in my theatre.  I had their last flagship the avr3700.  Although still not as good as the older ones like you had, it still had that hk sound.  But it took a crap and I finally wrote them off.  I would love to try out a 7550 or the 990 for two channel.

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You spent so much time on this and yet the sound is not what you expected. The first thing that comes to my mind is this -- you should be able to use a garbage receiver and still get decent sound, no?  

 

2 thoughts for consideration (not an expert, just a idea guy)...Youthman has a really detailed thread about using LaScalas and other speakers and having difficulty with Audyssey setting proper levels because of the efficieny of the LaScalas.  Is it possible that even though you are getting correction, you are bottoming out on the fronts at -12 and need more attentuation before setting levels properly?

 

2)  The room itself.  It sounds to me like there's a possibility that how you built the room combined with the speakers chosen is not working well with the treatments.   Just another thought.  

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You spent so much time on this and yet the sound is not what you expected. The first thing that comes to my mind is this -- you should be able to use a garbage receiver and still get decent sound, no?  

 

2 thoughts for consideration (not an expert, just a idea guy)...Youthman has a really detailed thread about using LaScalas and other speakers and having difficulty with Audyssey setting proper levels because of the efficieny of the LaScalas.  Is it possible that even though you are getting correction, you are bottoming out on the fronts at -12 and need more attentuation before setting levels properly?

 

2)  The room itself.  It sounds to me like there's a possibility that how you built the room combined with the speakers chosen is not working well with the treatments.   Just another thought.  

This is some of the exact things I fought. The front trims were completely bottomed out at -15 and the sides and rears were around -5. I did use a meter to adjust everything manually. I have never been a believer that a reciever or an amp would change sound much. I was sure there was a flaw in my room. When the Integra went out I was overjoyed to find how great the room sounded with the HK. I figured it had to be a better amp section in the HK since it weighs about 3x what the Integra weighs. I fed the Integra into the HK amps and the sound was the same. I tried everything in the integra to make it sound like the HK. Audyssey off, different crossover points, different surround modes. I just dont know what the HK does different. I've about decided to switch to component video and use the HK or use the Integra for video switching and the HK for sound. It just feels like a big waste to use the Integra as a video switcher. I wish one of you guys were close so you could give a listen.

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If the trims on your fronts are bottoming out, that's a problem with relative levels only, if I understand correctly.  The Audyssey EQ filters should still be working correctly.  Did you use all 8 microphone positions with Audyssey?  People with very efficient speakers like yours who have separate preamp/processors and power amps often use attenuators between the preamp and the power amps to make the levels come in right -- I don't know what to do if you have an AVR without a processor loop.  Someone here has solved that problem, but I forget who.

 

Audyssey improves the sound of my Klipschorns and modified Belle Klipsch, partly by reducing a peak in the area of 8K Hz.

 

Most people who use Audyssey turn up their subs a bit after Audyssey calibration.

 

As I remember the sound of HK units, they are very warm sounding.  Is that what you hear?

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If the trims on your fronts are bottoming out, that's a problem with relative levels only, if I understand correctly.  The Audyssey EQ filters should still be working correctly.  Did you use all 8 microphone positions with Audyssey?  People with very efficient speakers like yours who have separate preamp/processors and power amps often use attenuators between the preamp and the power amps to make the levels come in right -- I don't know what to do if you have an AVR without a processor loop.  Someone here has solved that problem, but I forget who.

 

Audyssey improves the sound of my Klipschorns and modified Belle Klipsch, partly by reducing a peak in the area of 8K Hz.

 

Most people who use Audyssey turn up their subs a bit after Audyssey calibration.

 

As I remember the sound of HK units, they are very warm sounding.  Is that what you hear?

I dont think its a trim issue. When i tried using the HK as an amp the volume on the HK still worked. I set it to -10 which let the Integra trim the fronts and boost the others about the same amount, The difference is hard to explain. You know the Dolby surround thing that plays at the beginning of some movies. It gives you a surround feeling. if that makes sense. I really feel it with the HK but not with the Integra. The surrounds seem to get less work with the Integra. I even boosted them but they just dont get as much work. 

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I ask again....are you using Logic 7 on your HK?  You see, I used to own a Fosgate Audionics 3A THX/Harman Kardon AVP1  prepro...it has some of the best surround sound of anything I'd heard.  Then I upgraded to the Citation 7.0 (Six Axis), HK expanded on this with Logic 7.  These modes are very immersive compared to the modes on other equipment. I'm wondering are you missing that in the Integra?

 

I recently switched from using an Onkyo receiver as a prepro to a Yamaha Aventage - and my B&K amp couldn't be happier!!!! Much better match, even in stereo listening.  

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I ask again....are you using Logic 7 on your HK?  You see, I used to own a Fosgate Audionics 3A THX/Harman Kardon AVP1  prepro...it has some of the best surround sound of anything I'd heard.  Then I upgraded to the Citation 7.0 (Six Axis), HK expanded on this with Logic 7.  These modes are very immersive compared to the modes on other equipment. I'm wondering are you missing that in the Integra?

 

I recently switched from using an Onkyo receiver as a prepro to a Yamaha Aventage - and my B&K amp couldn't be happier!!!! Much better match, even in stereo listening.

Yes I was using Logic 7. Maybe you stumbled on my issue. It is as you say very immersive. I'll play around some more and see if this possibly is the answer.
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