Somebody needs to remind me about ethanol next fall

[yamahaSHO]

Last pump of Ethanol free here closed last fall. The pump gas is killing marine engines and yard equipment. I had to replace all 5 implements and now use Sta Bil in the ZTR and buy ready mix 2 stroke fuel at Lawn and Irrigation. Fuel issue maintainence on all of our MoGas (pump gas) aircraft ground support equipment has increased by 20% over the last year; this I know, I do the charts and graphs.

My question for the mech types here; wouldn't running the engine until fuel system dry cause seal, gasket, o-ring dry out issues? On aircraft engines that will be idle longer than 56 days we purge the fuel system with 10 weight oil. Smokes a tad when you light it back off.

You're more likely to burn up the pump trying get to get it all out. Stabilizer would be my recommendation. Also, if it's in storage for a long duration, try to find some E0 gas to dilute it with.

I was told by a local farmer it takes nearly 2 gallons worth of Ethanol to refine one gallon of Ethanol, plus its far less efficient.

Sounds like a waste.

Just because its not the same corn type we enjoy on the cob at dinner does not mean its just going to waste, corn is used on many ways but for fuel its a bad inefficient choice period.

The process is getting better and better all the time. Chances are, that farmer has a old school thought and hasn't really put much else thought into it (most of them are clueless about it anyway).

It's been awhile since I've caught up with all the ethanol talk from the many car forums I provide tuning advice, but what is used to make ethanol is essentially waste.

As engines are built to take advantage of these types of fuels (no, your FlexFuel vehicle is not), power and MPG's increase.

As terms fly, my personal description of "knocking" is piston flutter. The sound you hear is the pistons rocking due to incomplete combustion / poor flame propagation causing the piston skirts to slap against the cylinder walls. What say ye?

Pistons rock during normal operation, which is why they are slightly barreled. Audible knock is more like marbles in a coffee can and generally too late for a motor pushing a lot of power.

Low octane fuel burns fast, high octane fuel burns slow.

If low octane fuel is used it will not burn at the proper rate causing your ping.

To a certain extent timing can be adjusted to compensate for this issue, newer cars have knock sensors and will retard timing on their own if everything is working properly.

Beyond that if pinging still exists you can burn holes in pistons, break pistons, burn the valves or break whatever the weakest link is in the chain.

Octane is the fuels resistance to detonation, not the speed at which it burns.

Knock sensors are reactive in the ECU pulling timing. Some cars will be proactive in pulling timing, but only because it's experienced enough knock in a given RPM and load to warrant a problem.

The resistance to detonation has much to do with the rate of witch the fuel burns.

Early combustion (fuel burning too quickly) is what causes the pinging we hear with lower octane fuel, this is why retarding the timing helps with the issue to a certain extent.

Octane rating also has to do with how much compression the fuel can take before igniting, the higher the octane the less likeliness to ignite under pressure.

Octane rating isn't directly related to burn speed; it is it's resistance to detonation. Type of fuel and additives will affect burn rate though.

It's not specifically about compression, it's about heat. Compression makes heat, but it's not equal in all engines. Knock isn't fuel burning too quickly, it's spontaneous ignition occurring after combustion. Pre-ignition is what can happen prior to combustion and is almost always deadly. Pre-ignition generally gets lit off by hot spots in the combustion chamber (or a tuner that doesn't have a clue what they're doing).

I do a lot of ECU tuning on high performance cars. I've played around with a lot of different setups, fuels, tuning parameters, etc. There are a lot of different factors in how a fuel is going to take timing.

[jason str]

^^^ I suggest you do a bit more reading on the subject.

 

I made the easiest laymen terms on the subject i possibly could to make it easy to understand.

 

Learned this basic stuff nearly 30 years ago now.

 

Pre-ignition is due to left over carbon deposits in the combustion chamber and is not the same thing we were speaking about but i would be happy to talk about that as well but don't want to anybody to confuse the two.

 

I have done much racing in the past as well, you guys have it easy now with everything being done on computer.

 

Before electronic controlled systems we had to do everything manually and was much more time consuming than a simple reprogramming.

[mustang guy]

preignition = the air and fuel exploded because of pressure and heat before the spark plug sparked

 

higher octane = less likely to ignite from pressure and heat than regular

 

ethanol = corn licker  

[JJkizak]

"Barrelled pistons"? How much is the barrel? I wonder how they do that.

JJK

[Pete H]

You got the idiot part right, but it was a different idiot

There's enough "idiot" to go around regarding policy when the big picture isn't considered and when the extended costs and impact aren't explored and then are not explained to the people, and again, my idiot comment would begin with all of those individuals associated with the initial policy and would apply even more to anyone that would want to expand a plan that was and is flawed. 

[Groomlakearea51]

Florida... "Rec" fuel which is high octane and no ethanol additives.; "Stabil" every six months the motor is going to sit; Start all motors, engines, etc., every 30-60 days; run to operating temps. Run mowers, chainsaws, trimmers, etc., "dry", then refuel with fresh fuel. You can leave motors "dry", if the fuel you ran dry has a stabilizer that leaves the gaskets, and other parts "lubricated".  

I do this all the time with my lawn stuff and my generators. The easy way is once a month start everything, test, and let run for a few minutes. Generators are a "critical' component, so those are run for at least 30 minutes.

 

Schedule the oil change every six months. drain, check and in this day and age, a good synthetic works fine. In Florida, all changed after hurricane season (end of October). Then in April-May as the rainy season starts.

 

Filters... If any of your "stuff" has fuel filters... Change them in the spring cycle.

 

My thoughts and experience from living in the "swamp" for 30 years.... LOL!!!

 

Later,

[JJkizak]

I use the E10 ethanol gas in my Homelite Super XLAO chaninsaw (45 years old) , 1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 (133,000 miles, 23 years old), and Cub Cadet RZT-50 Kawasaki (10years old) and never drain anything at anytime. Also use 4 year old gas and everything runs fine.

JJK

[mustang guy]

I like this story from CNN. It seems to cover all points well. The one thing it doesn't offer is an annual alarm clock for the fall. The title of this thread says it all. If you forget that, then you are going to have trouble come spring, unless you are one of the lucky ones that has superior gas.

 

I want what JJK is having.  

 

 

edit: I found another story. It seems that well sealed containers that are full may tend to last longer. Humidity, evaporation, and air seem to be the bad guys. In my sace, it is humidity plus ethanol = water in the bottom of the tank causing rust and scale which clogs stuff up. Also a problem are rubber components that are not ethanol safe. Here is the story: Maintenance Monday: Shelf life of gasoline

Edited April 3, 2016 by mustang guy

[mustang guy]

Here is a snip of Ethanol and some popular rubber materials used in carbs and fuel systems. I still have to look into fuel line rubber.

 

 

edit: I have been reading that many fuel lines used today are Nitrile. It rates pretty badly above. Ethanol causes swelling in Nitrile rubber, and Ethanol can actually escape from it. Of course this is an EiLI5.

Edited April 3, 2016 by mustang guy

[jason str]

I know GM was using Neoprene seals and lines that were not metal when i worked there but not sure if this is still the case.

 

According to the posted nothing is safe unless you only use one certain type of fuel.

[mustang guy]

I know GM was using Neoprene seals and lines that were not metal when i worked there but not sure if this is still the case.

 

According to the posted nothing is safe unless you only use one certain type of fuel.

 

Flourosilicone o-rings and hoses are "Satisfactory" and would be safe for use with Ethanol and with Gasoline. What I found is that all flouro silicones and elastomers are satisfactory. Neoprine is not good for gasoline according to this.

[yamahaSHO]

Since ethanol is hygroscopic, moisture is the enemy and keeping it sealed away from a fresh source, like humidity is key.
 

^^^ I suggest you do a bit more reading on the subject.

I made the easiest laymen terms on the subject i possibly could to make it easy to understand.

Learned this basic stuff nearly 30 years ago now.

Pre-ignition is due to left over carbon deposits in the combustion chamber and is not the same thing we were speaking about but i would be happy to talk about that as well but don't want to anybody to confuse the two.

I have done much racing in the past as well, you guys have it easy now with everything being done on computer.

Before electronic controlled systems we had to do everything manually and was much more time consuming than a simple reprogramming.

Trust me, I understand the subject well and I think you're still on the 'old school' thought, which is common. I've been reading and doing everyday for something like 15 years.

I also differentiated between pre-ignition and knock, which carbon deposits can be a source of the hot spot). I also road race and support other racers with tuning.

Using ECU control has also made it more complex since I can control intake advance, cam retard, boost and timing by gear and by ethanol percentage (and more), etc.

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by yamahaSHO

[jason str]

Just because i know all the old school tricks does not mean i don't know the new stuff as well, i was sent to GM training school a few weeks out of the year to keep up with the latest systems and diagnostics.

 

My only weakness is automatic transmissions as we had a specialist who dealt with all the automatic transmission problems.

[yamahaSHO]

That's fine, however, I didn't give any incorrect info. I have also been know to be called into a Subaru dealership to solve problem cars. I'm not professional mechanic and have found very little (probably none) I can have a technical conversation.

Additionally, the aftermarket understands and has figured out ethanol better thank anything an OEM is producing. I am one of those people doing that.

[dtel]

f you don't know, with ethanol in gas, water gets drawn out of the air and contaminates your gas tanks and carbs with water, rust and sludge.

 

i don't doubt it, my old truck is jacked up right now with the gas tank out and the fuel pump removed. The fuel pump just stopped so I took the tank out, removed the whole pump housing out and inside it's covered in rust including the metal tubes going down to the pump. Now I need to order the whole thing not just the pump, the tank looks OK.

 

It's an old truck, 89 Chevy 3/4 ton, it only has 43K miles and only get's used just to pull a trailer or go to the hardware store. 

[Audio Android]

I just like the way race gas smells.......I realize this is pointless, I just felt left out ...   

[mustang guy]

 

f you don't know, with ethanol in gas, water gets drawn out of the air and contaminates your gas tanks and carbs with water, rust and sludge.

 

i don't doubt it, my old truck is jacked up right now with the gas tank out and the fuel pump removed. The fuel pump just stopped so I took the tank out, removed the whole pump housing out and inside it's covered in rust including the metal tubes going down to the pump. Now I need to order the whole thing not just the pump, the tank looks OK.

 

It's an old truck, 89 Chevy 3/4 ton, it only has 43K miles and only get's used just to pull a trailer or go to the hardware store. 

 

You can buy replacement tanks pretty cheap ~$130 at LMC truck. You might need a sending unit too. Those range in price, but max about $200.

 

I just like the way race gas smells.......I realize this is pointless, I just felt left out ...   

I love CAM2. Call me a race fuel junkie.

[yamahaSHO]

I just like the way race gas smells.......I realize this is pointless, I just felt left out ...   

 

I run race gas in my pocket bike just for the smell.

That said, I like the smell of rich, WOT Ethanol better.  

[jason str]

 

 

f you don't know, with ethanol in gas, water gets drawn out of the air and contaminates your gas tanks and carbs with water, rust and sludge.

 

i don't doubt it, my old truck is jacked up right now with the gas tank out and the fuel pump removed. The fuel pump just stopped so I took the tank out, removed the whole pump housing out and inside it's covered in rust including the metal tubes going down to the pump. Now I need to order the whole thing not just the pump, the tank looks OK.

 

It's an old truck, 89 Chevy 3/4 ton, it only has 43K miles and only get's used just to pull a trailer or go to the hardware store. 

 

You can buy replacement tanks pretty cheap ~$130 at LMC truck. You might need a sending unit too. Those range in price, but max about $200.

 

 

 

 

 

Be sure to change the fuel filter if there was rust in the system.

[JJkizak]

Well my 45 year old Homelite chain saw kept stalling so I figured the E10 did it's thing. Went to the local repair place and they looked at it and said "No way we can fix that. We saved you the 35 dollar inspection fee that would have told you we can't fix it". So I toted it back home (after looking at the Stihl 500 to 800 dollar saws) and decided to take it apart and give it a look see. I noticed inside the fuel tank that the filter had moved upward and kinked the fuel plastic line. I removed the fuel line and pulled the filter up through the tank opening and checked it over and there were no holes then blew through the fuel filter and it was OK. I re-inserted the fuel line into the rubber grommets then installed the grommets then fished out the fuel line and installed the filter then shoved back into the tank. Loaded up the E10 gas with Stihl  oil and it cranked up and then started to saw some on the stump and everything OK. Saved me 700 dollars.

JJK