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Klipschorn upgrades which ones help


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have you actually used the EV DC-One or Ashly Protea series in your system since you say "will do almost as well with a minimal level of fidelity loss"..?

 

Mike, I'm not certain this is a good time to do this...   :unsure2:

 

The EVs and Proteas are 24/48 units.  The Yamaha SP2060 is a 24/96 unit, which I largely and mainly attribute to the difference in sound with the Dx38.  I don't believe that the op amps would make that much difference, but I could be surprised.  No one has made any negative comment on the Yamaha's or Xilicas' SQ anywhere, to my knowledge.

 

I used your review of the DC-One vs. the Dx38, whereby you said the two had about the same sound quality.  If you've changed your mind or you didn't actually speak your mind in that review then I guess that I'd have to say that I need to do a one vs. one using the DC-One and the Yamaha.  [i'm pretty sure that I know where I'd put my money, however.]

 

But if the difference is in the op amps and analog sections only then I could see where the DC-One or the Proteas might approach the Yamaha sound quality, which is what I was talking about above.  The Xilica apparently has the same properties as the Yamaha SP2060 in terms of inner detail/sound quality.  The Xilicas are all 24/96 units with apparently good analog electronic sections.

 

Once I got the Yamaha dialed in on the Jubs (it took about 20 minutes start-to-finish), it was a bit breathtaking vs. the Dx38--in terms of inner detail using the First Watt F3.  I didn't wish to make anyone feel bad about that comparison.

 

Chris

 

 

Chris I  try to be very careful about my opinions and especially if I am going to tell others what they are because of all the variables at play in any of our systems.

 

I also try not to give opinions about things I haven't done or experienced first hand but if I do it will always come with a disclaimer stating that my thoughts/opinions are not based on actual first hand experience. 

 

miketn :)

 

 

By the way I suspect we have a troll in our mist trying to cause problems in a couple of threads.... :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

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WOW CHRIS..... that's a great deal to comprehend. I need to know how to put it in to action.

 

A "Reader's Digest" version:

 

1) Try to EQ your Khorns flat in frequency response on-axis, especially in the midbass/midrange region from 100-500 Hz.  A good digital crossover is the way to do this (discussed below).

 

2) This is the horn that I'd use in a Khorn top-hat with a single 2" compression driver (without separated tweeter): https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/162879-402-price/?p=1998934

 

I recommend something like the BMS 4592-ND dual diaphragm compression driver. (includes midrange and tweeter compression drivers in one housing) and tri-amping this compression driver+bass bins.  That would be a smokin' combination. The BMS driver can be crossed as low as 300 Hz.  This is good because the Khorn bass bin has a real issue getting to 400 Hz.

 

3) I recommend a good quality digital crossover...as mentioned above.  A Xilica XP3060 (usually new) or a used Yamaha SP2060 (at even less money when they come up for sale) is on top of my list.  Choice of the amplifiers is yours--you can pretty much do whatever you want.

 

4) You've already got a sealed back bass bin.  It needs to be within 18 inches of the corner of the room.

 

The result will give a two-way K-402-based Jubilee a very hard time--as in it would be difficult to tell the difference.  This would also be much easier on the eyes than a Jubilee.

 

Chris

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Are you saying that Khorns, which have been built since the '40's, do not have time-aligned drivers?

Yes. It's not close to being aligned, in fact. There's 6 ms of time misalignment of the bass bin to the tweeter, and 4.4 ms of misalignment of the midrange to the bass bin: that's about 6.8 feet of misalignment of the tweeter to the bass bin, and 5 feet of misalignment of the midrange to the bass bin.  That's huge as far as loudspeakers go. 

 

The problem is that PWK didn't have access to high fidelity digital crossovers for all of those years, so the midrange-bass bin misalignment was something that he knew about, but could do very little about.

 

The tweeter to midrange time misalignment can be corrected by releasing the tweeter from inside the top hat and placing in a small baffle on top of the Khorn, centered at the back of the cabinet in order to align.  Once you do this (and it costs very little in terms of time or resources, and is easily reversible)--you will hear you Khorns like they're new - a very large sound stage will be apparent once you get the alignment within about 1/4 inch of correctly aligned.  Talk to Marvel or you can read this: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/160049-diy-la-scala-mid-upgrade-options/?p=1940532

 

Now I do know it's a factor with the Jubs because it's a cobbled together system that many claim only seems to work well when active crossovers are used. But don't all the extra electronic junk involved in active xovers present negative trade offs of their own? I know I myself gave up on active after less than a year.

 

If you've got golden ears, I'd recommend a 24/96 crossover like a Yamaha SP2060 or a Xilica XP2040 (i.e., NOT Behringer, miniDSP, dbx Driverack, or any other low-ball unit).  The Xilica XP2040 is less than $1K(US) new.  The XP3060 (which can cross three speakers) is only about $200-300 more.  For me, that's really the end of the discussion economically.  Talk to Ellis63 about how his Xilica sounds.

 

You can't low-ball the quality of the digital crossover. You wouldn't do that with a passive crossover or amplifier or preamp--you shouldn't consider it with a digital crossover.  The ElectroVoice DC-One or Dx38, or the Ashly Protea series will do almost as well with a minimal level of fidelity loss.

 

These high quality digital crossovers are now less money in used condition than the extreme slope crossovers from third parties here (I believe that you know who I'm talking about...). Their price for their passive crossovers ~$1500(US).  There's no contest based on price--used Yamaha SP2060s recently went for about $500-600(US).  As far as the transparency of these quality digital crossovers, you'll have to read the testimonials on this forum, including mine.  I cannot hear the Yamaha SP2060 that crosses and EQs my Jubilees: it's got that hi-fi inner detail that so many here like to have.

 

As far as your comment about "cobbled together", I'm not sure why you would use those words. I would recommend avoidance.  Your call.  The Jubilee has as much if not more work involved in the engineering of its configuration as any other Klipsch loudspeaker designed for the consumer market. YMMV.  That sounds like marketing BS.

 

There are several people that run passive crossovers with Jubilees.  Rigma's crossover are the only ones that I know that attempt to do everything passively that the digital crossover can do out of the box + 15 minutes.  In fact the digital crossover can time align, while the passives actually introduce additional phase lag on the bass bins (probably 360 degrees of additional phase lag).  Rigma's passive Jubilee crossovers/balancing networks apparently cost in excess of $3k(US) in terms of the raw materials--eight years ago.  They're massive.  I don't believe that's an attractive option in my view.

 

I find that people are resistant to technology they don't fully understand until they experience the true benefits of it, then they tolerate it.  Then they later feel that they can't do without it.  Just like anything else, if you try to low ball it, you don't get the benefits.

 

Chris

 

Thanks Chris, I was not aware of this at all.  Of course, I am new to Khorns in my own house. So I should place the tweeters about 17" back from their current position?  Sounds like a fun experiment. 

 

The active xovers you are talking about, even the used ones, cost more than my Khorns, so it could be quite awhile before  I try one of those.

 

Speaking of active crossovers, I'm pretty sure quite a few folks here used Behringer (which is what I have)  initially with Jubs before moving onto more expensive units, just like they moved on from the stock driver for the 402 horn to the Tad's.

 

My concern about active xovers is that you are taking a signal from say an elegant and minimal circuit like a SET amp, and then running it through a very complicated box full of all sorts of solid state components and you are adding yet another power supply into the equation.  Until someday when I can try it myself, I can only take other peoples words that this is not inducing artifacts into the signal. I'm sure you can understand my concerns about loading up the number of components after having found audio nirvana via tubes and vinyl. 

 

Oh and I'm comfortable with calling the Jub a cobbled together speaker and I mean that as no insult.  I mean it's the only thing Klipsch makes for home use without a dedicated passive xover and it uses two drivers that were not specifically designed to be used together.  This doesn't at all mean that Roy's work on the Jubilee should be denigrated in anyway, or the engineering faulted.  I'm not one of those bashers and idiots that chased Roy from the Forum. I've heard a pair and loved them.  But cobbled together?  Indeed.  Hell, Roy might even agree with that characterization, labor of love or not. It's just like my own home system, which is very much cobbled together but has added sonic bliss to an otherwise humdrum life.

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Very informative post Chris, as always, but this part puzzles me. Are you saying that Khorns, which have been built since the '40's, do not have time-aligned drivers? I'm surprised PWK would never have corrected that along the way.
  

 

Thebes whether you like it or not time-alignment is audible and can offer an improvement to an otherwise excellent system. I would also be careful about assuming what PWK would have done as technology advances. Did you know PWK was working with steep-slope crossovers in his later years even though one could dig up statements he made supporting simple 6db crossovers at one time?

 

 

 

 

Now I do know it's a factor with the Jubs because it's a cobbled together system that many claim only seems to work well when active crossovers are used. But don't all the extra electronic junk involved in active xovers present negative trade offs of their own? I know I myself gave up on active after less than a year.

 

"Jubs because it's a cobbled together system"   really thebes..... I thought better of you than this. 

 

 

 

miketn

 

Mike it not whether I like it or not, it's that I was unaware that  Khorns were not time-aligned, and yes I'm truly surprised that he did not address this issue along  the way.

 

You can read my comments above regarding my cobbled together remarks.   I applaud the fact that they are cobbled together,  it's American ingenuity at it's best.

 

 

I feel I have a legitimate concern about the signal chain with all the devices people try  to pile into a system

 

Here's what some people believe to be the ultimate system:

 

1.  Power supply: solid state electronics plus a power supply

 

2.  Preamp: another power supply

 

3.  Amp: Another power supply

 

4.  Active Crossover: another power supply, solid state stuff and can be bi or tri-amped adding up to four more power supplies

 

5.  Fancy rca cables or fancy digital connections:   non-spec attenuators one and all

 

6.  Fancy speaker wire:  more attenuators

 

7.  Speaker

 

Or you could do a turntable, integrated amp, in spec rca's and speaker wires, passive xover and speaker.  Two power sources (3 if you use a SUT)

 

I'm thinking the latter results in far less chances to muddy or change what yo are hearing from the source.

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Speaking of active crossovers, I'm pretty sure quite a few folks here used Behringer (which is what I have)  initially with Jubs before moving onto more expensive units, just like they moved on from the stock driver for the 402 horn to the Tad's.
 

 

I don't pretend to know all the facts but, I have been trying to keep tabs on who's got what given that they are/were willing to share.  That said there were at one time:

 

32 owners of Jubilee's

14 of them had EV-Dx38

2 had the XTI solution

8 passives

2 EV DC-One

1 Ashley NE8800

1 Yamaha SP 2060

 

 

9 had TAD 4002's

3 had Faital HF200

1 Martinelli (Golden Jubilee)

1 BNC

1 EV DH1A

Looks like the rest had the stock K69 

 

(this might not be 100% accurate today, it's what the list says)

 

 

Adding in the JubeScalas, adding in the Jubilee clones (none of which were in the above numbers) and I see more EV's, more XTI's, more passives.....  but I've yet to see a single Behringer in the list.

 

(not saying nobody has it....  it was never brought to my attention to update the list)

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Hey Marty

 

Sorry that I misinterpreted what you were saying but between the trolling and past experiences on the forum about the Jubs it's hard to always tell some people's intentions.

 

I also understand and appreciate the minimalist approach since I followed it for many years but it does have some real world limitations that need to be taken into account.

 

Speaking for myself I will never have a system again that doesn't offer me some ability to compensate for recordings that are poorly engineered.

 

 

 

miketn

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The active xovers you are talking about, even the used ones, cost more than my Khorns, so it could be quite awhile before I try one of those.

 

I understand.  The prices seem to be dropping slowly. I'm looking at OEM-type units, like the miniDSP but perhaps better suited for horn-loaded loudspeakers for the New Center horn ("A K-402-based Multiple-Entry Horn").  If I find something useful and economical, I'll post it here.

 

Speaking of active crossovers, I'm pretty sure quite a few folks here used Behringer (which is what I have) initially with Jubs before moving onto more expensive units, just like they moved on from the stock driver for the 402 horn to the Tad's.

 

Yes.  The Behringer had the marketing hype and all the specifications, but the implementation of the analog sections (and some of the digital part of the crossover, too) weren't hi-fi.  However, for PA use, they apparently work well.

 

My concern about active xovers is that you are taking a signal from say an elegant and minimal circuit like a SET amp, and then running it through a very complicated box full of all sorts of solid state components and you are adding yet another power supply into the equation. Until someday when I can try it myself, I can only take other peoples words that this is not inducing artifacts into the signal. I'm sure you can understand my concerns about loading up the number of components after having found audio nirvana via tubes and vinyl.

 

Yes...I understand. And of course, I lean into that issue--because I've had very good results thus far.  Roy's guidance on the subject, as well as discussions with others that have used the digital crossovers. The best information I got from Tom Danley in fact. He's a great guy.  I wish I could give him a gold star on his forehead.

 

I think that a lot of people just tried out the digital crossover thing a little too early a few years ago before the hardware was good enough and cheap enough for home hi-fi use.  I believe we're entering the actual phase where it is a toss-up in terms of price vs. passives, and the prices will continue to fall for the digital sets as the quantities sold rise.

 

I believe that once you hear a quality digital crossover in action, it isn't difficult to know what to do--your ears will tell you.  The thing about digital is that it isn't like analog--there is no degradation from the point you go into the digital realm, until you convert back to analog.  There is no noise that is picked up, and the signal is not degraded in analog fashion.  You can add all the filters you want, and the losses are essentially zero - it's like a computer program that makes no errors. 

 

Additionally, you're not having to lose power from your amplifiers to drive lossy passive crossover networks--you're direct coupled to the drivers without any additional losses.  This multiplies the available power to the midrange and HF drivers by something like 2:1. 

 

And you don't have amplifiers trying to drive three or more drivers per channel, which is a bit of a nightmare for amplifiers. You only have to drive one driver per amplifier channel.  This is a big deal in terms of fidelity.

 

Oh and I'm comfortable with calling the Jub a cobbled together speaker and I mean that as no insult.

 

Roger that.  No issues here. 

 

Chris

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Speaking of active crossovers, I'm pretty sure quite a few folks here used Behringer (which is what I have)  initially with Jubs before moving onto more expensive units, just like they moved on from the stock driver for the 402 horn to the Tad's.
 

 

I don't pretend to know all the facts but, I have been trying to keep tabs on who's got what given that they are/were willing to share.  That said there were at one time:

 

32 owners of Jubilee's

14 of them had EV-Dx38

2 had the XTI solution

8 passives

2 EV DC-One

1 Ashley NE8800

1 Yamaha SP 2060

 

 

9 had TAD 4002's

3 had Faital HF200

1 Martinelli (Golden Jubilee)

1 BNC

1 EV DH1A

Looks like the rest had the stock K69 

 

(this might not be 100% accurate today, it's what the list says)

 

 

Adding in the JubeScalas, adding in the Jubilee clones (none of which were in the above numbers) and I see more EV's, more XTI's, more passives.....  but I've yet to see a single Behringer in the list.

 

(not saying nobody has it....  it was never brought to my attention to update the list)

 

Coytee,

Don´t forget me on your list, I built a three way active system based on the DEQX system, a high end electronic crossover with time, phase and room correction.  After futzing around for a year I sold all that stuff (drivers, amps, crossover) and stayed with a vintage pre, a PP 2A3 amplifier and my ALK crossovers....I really didn´t find the complication and cost justified the extremely small difference in sound it made in my system, in my room, with my music, yadda, yadda, bing, bang. YMMV.  Obviously I am not too convinced about the need to "upgrade" a klipschorn. I totally respect everyone´s search for that perfect sound, that perfect musical reproduction system.  But after coming full circle I found mine and it is a klipschorn and some decent electronics...warm regards,

Tony

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I built a three way active system based on the DEQX system, a high end electronic crossover with time, phase and room correction. After futzing around for a year I sold all that stuff (drivers, amps, crossover) and stayed with a vintage pre, a PP 2A3 amplifier and my ALK crossovers....I really didn´t find the complication and cost justified the extremely small difference in sound it made in my system, in my room, with my music, yadda, yadda, bing, bang. YMMV. Obviously I am not too convinced about the need to "upgrade" a klipschorn. I totally respect everyone´s search for that perfect sound, that perfect musical reproduction system. But after coming full circle I found mine and it is a klipschorn and some decent electronics...warm regards, Tony

 

Exactly! I did the same except I replaced my mid horns.

Edited by Johnny's Jill
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Simply by our vary nature to be attracted to great music and what that implies in the realm of striving for a higher plane... ( i.e. very intelligent and informed) are we subject to the following?    Just asking!    

 

 

SO TO THAT END, if one listened to a music system ( that gets us to 90~95% of what is possible in the art of sound reproduction ) one day and then a day or two later listens to a music system ( with ~98 to99% i.e. the active crossover set up)   how much is real and how much is the McGurk effect or even the power of suggestion effect.

 

I can say this with 101% accuracy!  When I have not listened to my system for a day or two, it sounds freaking amazing.  After many hours it still sounds amazing, but if I am critically listening vs enjoying the music, I start to hear ( perceive) areas that might be improved upon....

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Speaking of active crossovers, I'm pretty sure quite a few folks here used Behringer (which is what I have)  initially with Jubs before moving onto more expensive units, just like they moved on from the stock driver for the 402 horn to the Tad's.
 

 

I don't pretend to know all the facts but, I have been trying to keep tabs on who's got what given that they are/were willing to share.  That said there were at one time:

 

32 owners of Jubilee's

14 of them had EV-Dx38

2 had the XTI solution

8 passives

2 EV DC-One

1 Ashley NE8800

1 Yamaha SP 2060

 

 

9 had TAD 4002's

3 had Faital HF200

1 Martinelli (Golden Jubilee)

1 BNC

1 EV DH1A

Looks like the rest had the stock K69 

 

(this might not be 100% accurate today, it's what the list says)

 

 

Adding in the JubeScalas, adding in the Jubilee clones (none of which were in the above numbers) and I see more EV's, more XTI's, more passives.....  but I've yet to see a single Behringer in the list.

 

(not saying nobody has it....  it was never brought to my attention to update the list)

 

Could very well be true, but around the  time the Jubs came out there was a lot of discussion here about Behringer's as an inexpensive method of active EQ. 

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Sorry that I misinterpreted what you were saying but between the trolling and past experiences on the forum about the Jubs it's hard to always tell some people's intentions.

 

Why you silly little doggie, you need never apologize to a thebes., after all "they know not what they do".  Quite frankly, before I got my Khorns, I'd lie awake at night dreaming of sudden riches and whether it would be Khorns or Jubs.  Sorta like Tawny and Tickles, which one do I get first.

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The active xovers you are talking about, even the used ones, cost more than my Khorns, so it could be quite awhile before I try one of those.

 

I understand.  The prices seem to be dropping slowly. I'm looking at OEM-type units, like the miniDSP but perhaps better suited for horn-loaded loudspeakers for the New Center horn ("A K-402-based Multiple-Entry Horn").  If I find something useful and economical, I'll post it here.

 

Speaking of active crossovers, I'm pretty sure quite a few folks here used Behringer (which is what I have) initially with Jubs before moving onto more expensive units, just like they moved on from the stock driver for the 402 horn to the Tad's.

 

Yes.  The Behringer had the marketing hype and all the specifications, but the implementation of the analog sections (and some of the digital part of the crossover, too) weren't hi-fi.  However, for PA use, they apparently work well.

 

My concern about active xovers is that you are taking a signal from say an elegant and minimal circuit like a SET amp, and then running it through a very complicated box full of all sorts of solid state components and you are adding yet another power supply into the equation. Until someday when I can try it myself, I can only take other peoples words that this is not inducing artifacts into the signal. I'm sure you can understand my concerns about loading up the number of components after having found audio nirvana via tubes and vinyl.

 

Yes...I understand. And of course, I lean into that issue--because I've had very good results thus far.  Roy's guidance on the subject, as well as discussions with others that have used the digital crossovers. The best information I got from Tom Danley in fact. He's a great guy.  I wish I could give him a gold star on his forehead.

 

I think that a lot of people just tried out the digital crossover thing a little too early a few years ago before the hardware was good enough and cheap enough for home hi-fi use.  I believe we're entering the actual phase where it is a toss-up in terms of price vs. passives, and the prices will continue to fall for the digital sets as the quantities sold rise.

 

I believe that once you hear a quality digital crossover in action, it isn't difficult to know what to do--your ears will tell you.  The thing about digital is that it isn't like analog--there is no degradation from the point you go into the digital realm, until you convert back to analog.  There is no noise that is picked up, and the signal is not degraded in analog fashion.  You can add all the filters you want, and the losses are essentially zero - it's like a computer program that makes no errors. 

 

Additionally, you're not having to lose power from your amplifiers to drive lossy passive crossover networks--you're direct coupled to the drivers without any additional losses.  This multiplies the available power to the midrange and HF drivers by something like 2:1. 

 

And you don't have amplifiers trying to drive three or more drivers per channel, which is a bit of a nightmare for amplifiers. You only have to drive one driver per amplifier channel.  This is a big deal in terms of fidelity.

 

Oh and I'm comfortable with calling the Jub a cobbled together speaker and I mean that as no insult.

 

Roger that.  No issues here. 

 

Chris

 

I do appreciates the thoughtful, detailed reply. I did enclose the backs of the Khorns today. Will listen a bit and then onto more experimentation, especially your recommendation on tweeter replacement. 

 

You can teach today, and someday I will teach you by bringing you back to the glory of analogue. :D

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Sorry that I misinterpreted what you were saying but between the trolling and past experiences on the forum about the Jubs it's hard to always tell some people's intentions.

 

Why you silly little doggie, you need never apologize to a thebes., after all "they know not what they do".  Quite frankly, before I got my Khorns, I'd lie awake at night dreaming of sudden riches and whether it would be Khorns or Jubs.  Sorta like Tawny and Tickles, which one do I get first.

 

 

Congrats on the Klipschorns Marty..!!!

 

By the way the largest obstacle to unleashing the magic of the Mighty Klipschorn is the Room/Setup and if you get that right you just might wonder why anyone would ever modify them... :D  

 

miketn.

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  • 2 months later...

 Not technically "new" to this forum, but for a variety of reasons I haven't visited here for a LONG time! (OK like 7 years! lol)
But mostly due to some down-sizing I had sold off my LaScalas and Khorns many years ago.
BUT

Recently I caught the bug again and picked up another nice pair of walnut Khorns (1980) that are essentially untouched and in need of some love and was specifically interested in the Volti Audio upgrades from Greg Roberts. (listening impressions, value, customer service etc.)
 

I searched, but couldn't find much on here- is there a dedicated Volti thread I've missed??

Thanks

WopOnTour
 

 

post-17771-0-27280000-1466976659_thumb.j

 

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If anyone cares, Roy said he's taken the Khorn into the chamber and created an active crossover profile for it.  I asked him to send it to me and he has since disappeared off the face of the earth.

 

Just wanted to let that be known in case anyone has a hankering to triamp a Khorn.

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Now THAT would be an upgrade.  Any later hardware upgrades could be incorporated easily using an active crossover.

 

You can use the settings that Greg Oshiro used for his Khorns:  https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/132275-i-finally-got-around-to-triamping-my-k-horns/?p=1480317

 

Chris

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I don't pretend to know all the facts but, I have been trying to keep tabs on who's got what given that they are/were willing to share.  That said there were at one time:   32 owners of Jubilee's 14 of them had EV-Dx38 2 had the XTI solution 8 passives 2 EV DC-One 1 Ashley NE8800 1 Yamaha SP 2060     9 had TAD 4002's 3 had Faital HF200 1 Martinelli (Golden Jubilee) 1 BNC 1 EV DH1A Looks like the rest had the stock K69    (this might not be 100% accurate today, it's what the list says)     Adding in the JubeScalas, adding in the Jubilee clones (none of which were in the above numbers) and I see more EV's, more XTI's, more passives.....  but I've yet to see a single Behringer in the list.  

I think updating the Klipschorn with the AK-4 or AK-5 should be added to that list.  I did exactly that around 2002, and was very impressed with improvements in blending and smoothness.  And they are, after all, integrated Klipsch-engineered products.  Anyway, I like mine very much, have no desire to tinker with or search for hoped-for improvements.

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