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2Bmusic

Other speakers than Khorns...

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how about a pair of JTR 215RT's? i have heard them a few times and if i had the money to spend on them they would be my next speakers. 

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Will there be Khorns there that have the Volti Audio Upgrades?   Or other upgrades for that matter?
No one does "upgrades" for Klipsch, and you should not think that Volti, good as it is, is in any way an upgrade to Klipsch.

 

Volti is a separate and unrelated company. 

 

I would like to understand why you say Volti  is not a upgrade to KHorns. I am guessing you feel the same way for any non-klipsch mod????    MANY people have replaced the squawker ( mid range) and report that the Khorn sounds better. 

I would very much appreciate you explaining this to me. It would save me a lot of money.  Maybe I am looking / listening in the wrong way, maybe wrong expectations?   You can pm me or even we could talk on the phone. I am very open minded.  Please understand Why I am thinking about new midrange. Many times with female singers, It sounds as though the horn is distorting or shrieking as opposed to the music just flowing out.  It only does this at 80~ 85  db-spl ( an up)  at listening position... and not with all recordings. 

You help in this matter is greatly appreciated!

 

 

I think you misread his comment.

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Not even sure why some folks come here except to "peddle their wares"! Roy has generously shared his knowledge with way too many people, in my opinion.

 

Clearly, I upset you and that was not my intent.  As a matter of policy, I never use humor in any forum because it will be taken badly by someone at some point.  I apologize for that singular breach of my personal policy. 

 

You may not be aware, but I consider only one Klipsch employee at least as a professional  acquaintance and a source of a wealth of technical knowledge that has helped me a great deal over the course of eight years in gaining domain knowledge in this area.  I've also bought many thousands of dollars worth of equipment over that course of time through him, provided in-house demos of Klipsch equipment to potential buyers many times (at no gain to myself), and tried to provide useful technical information back to him in the form of prototype tests, new product design, changes in competitor products and IP, etc. 

 

I can assure you that I have never and do not ever intend to impugn the integrity of Mr. Delgado.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  While I do disagree from time to time--just like any human being is apt to do--on matters of company policies that I see that might limit significant sales opportunities, new product design approaches and details, and marketing strategies, just like he does here, in the future, when I disagree with company policies or see opportunities for potential product upgrades by Klipsch, I will keep those to myself here so as not to upset anyone.

 

Again, my apologies. It will not occur again.

 

Chris

Edited by Chris A

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Not even sure why some folks come here except to "peddle their wares"! Roy has generously shared his knowledge with way too many people, in my opinion.

 

Clearly, I upset you and that was not my intent.  As a matter of policy, I never use humor in any forum because it will be taken badly by someone at some point.  I apologize for that singular breach of my personal policy. 

 

You may not be aware, but I consider only one Klipsch employee at least as a professional  acquaintance and a source of a wealth of technical knowledge that has helped me a great deal over the course of eight years in gaining domain knowledge in this area.  I've also bought many thousands of dollars worth of equipment over that course of time through him, provided in-house demos of Klipsch equipment to potential buyers many times (at no gain to myself), and tried to provide useful technical information back to him in the form of prototype tests, new product design, changes in competitor products and IP, etc. 

 

I can assure you that I have never and do not ever intend to impugn the integrity of Mr. Delgado.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  While I do disagree from time to time--just like any human being is apt to do--on matters of company policies that I see that might limit significant sales opportunities, new product design approaches and details, and marketing strategies, just like he does here, in the future, when I disagree with company policies or see opportunities for potential product upgrades by Klipsch, I will keep those to myself here so as not to upset anyone.

 

Again, my apologies. It will not occur again.

 

Chris

The latter part of my statement was not particularly directed at you. I'm fairly familiar with you and Roy's relationship and was rather surprised at your comment regarding pricing, as Roy has no control over that aspect. Feel free to voice your opinion over things he may actually have some input on.

Christy

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I would like to understand why you say Volti  is not a upgrade to KHorns. I am guessing you feel the same way for any non-klipsch mod????    MANY people have replaced the squawker ( mid range) and report that the Khorn sounds better.  I would very much appreciate you explaining this to me. It would save me a lot of money.  Maybe I am looking / listening in the wrong way, maybe wrong expectations?   You can pm me or even we could talk on the phone. I am very open minded.  Please understand Why I am thinking about new midrange. Many times with female singers, It sounds as though the horn is distorting or shrieking as opposed to the music just flowing out.  It only does this at 80~ 85  db-spl ( an up)  at listening position... and not with all recordings.  You help in this matter is greatly appreciated!
As we subsequently discussed, whether something is an "upgrade" or not is in the eye of the beholder.  If it's not a product made by the manufacturer that is specifically held out to be an upgrade, it may be presumptuous to declare it so.  I have heard a few such items that do sound quite good, and quite a few that do not.

 

To avoid disappointment, you should be sure to listen to a proffered upgrade to form your own opinion, or at the very least, find someone whose ears you trust to recommend for (or not) the new product.  I was simply cautioning against jumping into something that someone has flippantly called an "upgrade."  It may not be.

 

I don't automatically come down against non-Klipsch products.  I am, however, skeptical, especially if it hasn't undergone the extensive engineering and testing that have been behind Klipsch products for many years.  I think that's true of the AK-4 kits which have been very satisfactory to me.  I've heard and liked a few other non-Klipsch mid-horns and X-overs that sound like real music to me.  It sounds like you take the same approach.  IOW, a few grains of skepticism are warranted in some of these things.

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I don't automatically come down against non-Klipsch products. I am, however, skeptical, especially if it hasn't undergone the extensive engineering and testing that have been behind Klipsch products for many years. I think that's true of the AK-4 kits which have been very satisfactory to me. I've heard and liked a few other non-Klipsch mid-horns and X-overs that sound like real music to me. It sounds like you take the same approach. IOW, a few grains of skepticism are warranted in some of these things.

 

I can agree with much of this.  I've seen data posted on third-party "upgrades" that weren't--rather they were more like, "different".  I'd be especially careful of any third-party hardware that isn't accompanied by some test data, in addition to the usual testimonials that one sees with all this stuff. 

 

In particular, crossover networks that aren't 100% tested for both amplitude and phase using either an oscilloscope or, even better, an on-axis microphone and something like REW or TrueRTA (or similar test software that one pays for).  The total cost for the microphone and the software is less than $100US, and is something that all vendors should be able to afford.  If they don't offer this data up front or promptly by request, I'd be really cautious about buying anything from them. 

 

As far as the as any Klipsch "seal of approval" in terms of due diligence of the quality of the upgrades, I think that this is a little less important if you have some technical knowledge and familiarity in the subject matter and can see in the data what the value of the upgrade is likely to be.  If, however, you don't have much knowledge then sticking to Klipsch's seal of approval is probably wise.  However, I've noticed that there are a lot of Klipsch owners that do not follow that advice. 

 

In particular, I see a measurement data on aftermarket horns that are really not very good. But then I see people swearing by them. I think that a lot of what is occurring in those cases is that something else is being addressed by the replacement horn that should have been addressed by perhaps room acoustic treatment, in-room loudspeaker re-positioning, or simply re-equalizing the loudspeakers.  Buying a new horn is a strange way to fix those issues, IMO. 

 

That's why I typically recommend Klipsch's horns (e.g., the K-510 and the K-402).  I've seen and used third-party midrange horns that have variety of issues:

  • internal slots and other internal discontinuities that cause acoustic and even electrical impedance bounces, and "frying eggs" sound,
  • poor throat geometries leading to irregular high frequency polars and even on-axis SPL/frequency,
  • really poor directivity vs. frequency, i.e., the HF polars squash down to a beam and the LF polars are more than 180 degrees,
  • polar mismatches with the tweeter and/or the bass bin polars at the crossover band(s)
  • non-straight side walls--also leading to HF polar issues and "horn honk",
  • horn mouths insufficient in vertical and horizontal dimensions to control acoustic SPL polars down through the passband that they're used,

Chris

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I can see the "upgrade" issue and nomenclature. 

 

Suppose you had a Studebaker and put in a Cadillac engine.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studillac  It would be improper to call a Studillac a Studebaker "upgrade" regardless of technical merits.  I'm sure both companies would agree.

 

Its a beauty.  http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mi-tests-the-studillac/

 

 

I'll agree with Chris on the mid-bass issue too.  Once, when obsessed, I built two corner horns based on the Speakerlab plans and what I'll call a "Bigger Belle."  The center BB really enhanced the bass. 

 

WMcD

Edited by WMcD

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As far as the as any Klipsch "seal of approval" in terms of due diligence of the quality of the upgrades, I think that this is a little less important if you have some technical knowledge and familiarity in the subject matter and can see in the data what the value of the upgrade is likely to be.  If, however, you don't have much knowledge then sticking to Klipsch's seal of approval is probably wise.  However, I've noticed that there are a lot of Klipsch owners that do not follow that advice.    In particular, I see a measurement data on aftermarket horns that are really not very good. But then I see people swearing by them. I think that a lot of what is occurring in those cases is that something else is being addressed by the replacement horn that should have been addressed by perhaps room acoustic treatment, in-room loudspeaker re-positioning, or simply re-equalizing the loudspeakers.  Buying a new horn is a strange way to fix those issues, IMO.   
Great clarifying comment, Chris!  Often, changes in a component will cause the listener to hear some new detail, that he/she hadn't heard or noted before.  This may cause that listener to believe that he/she is hearing greater detail, and that it's better.  However, going back and listening some more may reveal that UNNOTICED details are no longer as audible, or are distorted in some way.  It's harder to incorporate the perspective of what's not there into one's opinion.  This is why listening to new components should be extended and take a while on a variety of sound source material, IMHO.  
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Replying to LarryC, ChrisA & 2Bmusic (my multiquote isn't working):

 

I like the Klipsch AK4 Klipschorn upgrade, too.  Larry, do you play mostly classical music?  I think I remember that.  I do too, plus more modern orchestral, organ and jazz.  I have Klipsch's resin version of the mid-horn, the K401.  We followed the advice of Chris A on putting absorbers on the wall to the right and left of the mid horns, and have no obstructions between the Khorns on the advice of both Roy and Chris (our Belle center is flush mounted in the wall, and sticks out the back of the wall into a bump-out; we built a new top-hat which also sticks out in the rear with the K401, and the original K77F).  We use Audyssey Flat most of the time.  I have never heard an offensive sound from a Blu-ray (we have played about two per week).  Some CDs are pretty terrible, compressed, and sometimes a bit harsh (on our Khorns, and all other speakers in the house), but most are good enough.  So far, I prefer SACDs, but, since AES can't hear the difference, it may just be me.

 

As to non-Klipsch upgrades, I wonder.  I feel more comfortable with something that has been through Klipsch's revolving door anechoic chamber and evaluated and/or tweeked.  I have confidence in Roy.  I like Crites, who seems humble and dedicated, but haven't heard any of his stuff.  I have only read about Volti. 

 

Until I have a problem with the K401 mid horn, I'm not motivated to change it.  If I were going to spend the money, time and energy to upgrade I'd probably go hear a pair of the best Jubilee configurations, and also set up for home re-mastering, like Chris A.

Edited by garyrc

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Replying to LarryC, ChrisA & 2Bmusic (my multiquote isn't working):   I like the Klipsch AK4 Klipschorn upgrade, too.  Larry, do you play mostly classical music?  I think I remember that.  I do too, plus more modern orchestral, organ and jazz.  I have Klipsch's resin version of the mid-horn, the K401. 
Exactly right, Garyrc.  Only classical keeps my attention over time.  I judge system quality by how well it reproduces instruments and voices in classical music. 
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I have heard K-Horns twice in my life and was not impressed. This was possibly due to the owners not knowing the ideal listening room that is required. Both listening areas were in a all concrete basement with no treatments and cheap stereo equipment. I wish I could hear them in a proper setup. I have had Cornwalls and Chorus II's. Loved the Chorus II's but they are a ***** when it comes to speaker placement. Got rid of my Cornwalls before I ventured in tubes. I would love to make the plunge to K-Horns but my listening room is not suited for K-Horns.

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Solved my speaker questions and pondering's.  With the Khorns being driven with VRD's and Nos Pre, carpet in the room and sound absorption ( blanket for now) on wall facing the horns, ( directly across ) Oft times listening will cause eyes to leak ( in a good way).  As I said on another post, if the sound were to be waves crashing on a beach, I have no doubt that I could smell, taste and feel the salt!    

 

A big thank you to the following people for being instrumental in this  Incredible and amazing 2 channel system being in my life.

PWK & team

Tim

Rodney

Craig 

Brad 

John

...and anyone else I may have forgotten to mention.

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A big thank you to the following people for being instrumental in this Incredible and amazing 2 channel system being in my life.

 

...and anyone else I may have forgotten to mention.

 

Hey, you forgot to mention me!  :lol::P

 

You make a great point about your electronics upgrade to match the Khorns. 

 

If you have a Porsche you have to match them up with quality tires, you can't use re-treads.  You have to quality match all the high quality components if you want to get the highest performance.

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Putting K-horns in a small room is like driving a Ferrari in a traffic jam at 10MPH.

JJK

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Putting K-horns in a small room is like driving a Ferrari in a traffic jam at 10MPH.

JJK

I guess so,  but my room is ~ 15 X 18.   If you don't get goosebumps when listening, best to use my blood pressure cuff!   

Edited by 2Bmusic
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I'd be happy to drive a Ferrari in a traffic jam at 10 mph  :P

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Does anyone own or listen to other speakers than Khorns? I have not found any that sound better than my KHorns, but then I have only listened to a very few. BW 802, Sonos, Martin logan Electrostatic. and some $50,000 at an audio shop in New Orleans. I was thinking about getting a second pair of speakers for another room.  I am very interested in the Decware Monolith's. Since I know every one here has golden ears, or approaching that level, maybe some one could share their experience. 

 

I've heard a lot of great sounding speakers in my life. Many sound as good as the best from Klipsch (KHorns, LS, Cornwalls and Belles) with a good SS Amp. I've not owned any speakers better than my Belles with tube amplifiers though.

Edited by Wolfbane

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It's my experience that any well designed speaker with a good build quality is going to sound great. They are just going to sound different. It will come down to personal preference. In my little group we have had speakers from Rockport, Avalon, Avantgarde, B&W, Tannoy, PBN Montana, Martin Logan,Volti Audio, and Klipsch. They all made beautiful music. What separated these speakers was not price or design but the room acoustics. Proper speaker placement and room treatment made the biggest difference.

Edited by Capt.Chaos
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