Card Deluxe...INDEED!!!

[Mallette]

I've had a day to play with Card Deluxe. First and foremost...for the first time I can clearly hear digital artifacting of all types. "Digital artifacting" in this case means poor dithering/transcoding, frequency cieling, grittiness, lack of transparency and all such ills generally specific to the digital medium. The big thing is that I've found that these ills are present in about the same percentage of recordings (80% or so) that afflicted the LP in it's primacy. There is no longer any question in my mind that the controversy over digital media resides mainly in the playback chain. I've long suspected that this was the case. I've never even seen a CD player costing over a couple of hundred bucks, and few of us really understand what is going on in there. However, the fact that debate rages over digital vs. analog itself is enough to suggest something is wrong at most sweet spots. Further, it is now apparent to me that another thing I've believed, that a low end turntable with a low end cartridge will run musical circles around the average CD player, is beyond doubt.

What's with this thing? Doesn't even appear as complex as a SoundBlaster. Handful of capacitors and some very small ic's. Must be some magic somewhere in there! The I/O's are real telephone jacks balanced/unbalanced (jumper selectable). S/pdif is gold RCA. Very solid. Went in without a hitch.

OTOH, there was absolutely NO software. At this price they really could include some sort of basic recorder. I had to locate and download recording software. I finally wound up with n-Track Studio. This was frustrating. I was trying to save a few bucks, and n-Track appeared to be 42.00. I tested the evaluation download, which was limited to 1 minute of 24 bit recording, and it appeared good. So I purchased registration and started to really test. It stopped at 1 minute saying I needed to register the @$ BIT VERSION!. Upon closer examination, I found this to be true...the 24 bit version was another 20 bucks, though you had to look close to determine that. By this time, I'm within 10 bucks of Quartz Project, which I would have prefered. Oh, well.

So I proceeded to make a 24/96 recording of the Jan and Dean Audio Encores (AE1-1003) pressing. Playback was a revelation. Perfect? Not quite, not as immediate or transparent...but by far the most satisfying recording of an LP I've heard since 15 ips reel to reel with DBX. Better than most LP's, and that is a STRETCH for old "analog forever" Dave. HDD usage for 24:00 was about 840 meg. No question there is more info there!

As to CD playback, I went straight to "Laudemus Te" on the Pomp and Pipes disc. WOW. TIGHT bass, sonorous brass, smooth musical mid. Next to Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. This one I've in both LP and CD, and had always found the LP much more listenable and engaging. Now, the gap is far smaller. Except for that slight since of "brick cieling," the CD is completely listenable. Spent a little time with lesser CD's, Eagles, old Stones, etc. All much more listenable, though digital artifacting was more apparent than before. Of course, that's a good thing...tells me WHERE the problem is rather than simply not sounding good.

Bottom line: CDeluxe and an old computer is the way to go if you can't put a kilobuck or more to put into a dedicated high end CD player. Further, with 80 meg HDD's going for less than a 100.00 and storing a 150 easy to access CD's the fiddle factor can be eliminated, as well as potential CD damage. While I hear about CD copy protection, I've not run into any yet and rather doubt it will be "grandfathered" into the thousands of already published discs.

Next, I'm looking forward to pairing it with my ribbon mics, VT mic preamp, and doing a 24/96 field recording. That should happen at the end of the month when I am booked to do a chamber music recording with members of the Dallas Symphony. More then!

Digital Dave

[eq_shadimar]

Cool!! Can't wait to hear it this weekend.

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...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world...

My Home Theater Page

[j-malotky]

Mallet

I am not familuar with Card deluxe. Can you post link info. Is this a sound card?

I am in the process of planning out my new HTPC and at the moment planning to use the maudio card, so I can output DTS to my Lexicon.

Did you compare it to the Maudio?

JM

[Mallette]

Card Deluxe was compared favorably to a 15,000 Mark Levinson DAC in a $tereophile review. I suspect you can still find it at stereophile.com. Also, check it out directly at http://www.digitalaudiolabs.com.

I did a LOT of research, but no direct A/B as this is a bit difficult with sound cards. My previous card is a Turtle Beach Pinnacle...really quite good as well but not in a class with CD.

Dave

[AndyKubicki]

Dave, I had that bookmarked for when I'm ready to update my soundcard. I do some MIDI comps and need a better card, so I will follow your thread.

A Jan & Dean fan, eh? I still have some of their vinyl tucked away from my earlier musical days. But I'm not familiar with that recording.

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Andy

78 Khorns (20' apart!)

Audire Difet 3 Preamp

Adcom GFA 535 II

NAD 4130 Tuner

Marantz CD 63SE

Pioneer DV 434s>c>

[Mallette]

"Fan" would be pushing it, but I was there and it was before pot, so I remember. The main thing, however is that wonderful pressing. I rather doubt the original releases sound that good. I know the 45's didn't :-).

Dave

[kenratboy]

Too expensive.

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Receiver: Sony STR-DE675

CD player: Sony CDP-CX300

Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U

Speakers: JBL HLS-610

Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8

Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt

Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs

Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo!

For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org

[j-malotky]

rat

This card is a bargain. You arent seeing the big picture. Compare the price to what you can do with this card, not to what you paid for your Creative live card.

Dave

Enjoy the sound.

Ive been doing a lot a research starting to plan my New Multimedia computer the last few days. It started when I realized how the standard of the shelf DVD players output does not do justice to the data on the DVD disk.

I think more of us will be exploring the use of computers in our hobby sooner than later.

Thanks for the info....

JM

[Audible Nectar]

"This card is a bargain. You arent seeing the big picture. Compare the price to what you can do with this card, not to what you paid for your Creative live card."

Bingo! I've had this card since it's release and I've never regretted it. This card makes your computer a high end recording component. People spend much more on components than this. I'm surprised it's not more expensive.

Dave, you'll never look back!

[Mallette]

Ken, I totally agree with dnd and jm. Until CDeluxe I simply did not listen to digital except for my own and about 4 discs other than in the car. Can you tell me of a CD player for the price that sounds this good? Even if their were such a player, it wouldn't record 24/96 and store an unlimited amount of immediately available CD's.

It's not just bargain, it's damn near free compared to other high-end gear. And it is DEFINITELY high-end.

Have you heard the card?

Of course, you all should be getting some other opinions in the next couple of days, as today is the DFW Klipsch Forum meeting at Jeff's (eq_shadimar).

Dave

[artto]

Do any of you use Card Deluxe for live recording?

I'm using Oktava MC-012 condenser mics which need phantom voltage but if there's no phantom voltage there's no point in changing my setup from the E-mu 0404/Mackie 1202 combo

[Mallette]

You cannot get much better than CD for live recording. In my case, I use Oktava ML-52 ribbons...but that is, of course, irrelevant to the CD. It is as transparent as any device can be. IMHO, there is no significantly finer ADAC at any price.

Enjoy! I'd love to hear the results.

Dave

[Marvel]

Do any of you use Card Deluxe for live recording?

I'm using Oktava MC-012 condenser mics which need phantom voltage but if there's no phantom voltage there's no point in changing my setup from the E-mu 0404/Mackie 1202 combo

artto,

you will still need your mixer or preamps. I would look into better mic pre's than what comes on the Mackie. There are lots of choices, either tube or ss, not considered boutique, but would cost more than the Mackie by itself. A good mic pre can make you think you just bought very expensive mics.

[maxg]

Dave,

Not to put a damper on your digital playing but I have recently come up with a somewhat impractical solution to recording from vinyl that, sonically at least appears to blow all other options out of the water.

To cut a very long story short for the longest time I have had a couple of old video recorders kicking around not connected to anything. I decided to test out a theory - that potentially these would be akin to master tapes. In theory these old VCR's are miles ahead of any other tape system every made due to this Helical scanning system employed enabling them to store more date, more reliably into a smaller space.

Anyway - I have 2 of these units - a 6 head sharp and a 4 head sony. Choosing on the basis that the more heads the better (in other words - I have no idea) I installed the sharp into my system and started to play around.

Firs stop was to insert the video between the phono stage and the pre-amp and play back without recording. I just wanted to see what impact on the sound the video would have on its own. To my (somewhat limited these days) ears I could barely tell. This was excellent news - any other result would have brought the whole experiment to a halt.

The good thing about this Sharp is that it has an input for video cameras (composite plus left and right stereo RCAs) and an output for audio RCA's - meaning I could completely bypass the euro-connectors that are often noisy.

Haing extablished that the unit itself appeared to be without sonic signature the next step was cleaning the heads and testing the recording capability. I did this frst with normal TV recording and it appeared to work perfectly - even on some of the 50 or so tapes that I already owned.

Next I took a rahter nice recording:

Bach / Brandenburg Concertos
English Chamber Orchestra
Bengamin Britten
London
K38C 70041
Stereo
Japan
Super Analogue

Dropped the needle and hit record on the Sharp. Actually I did side 2 of the album first as I am a sucker for the third concerto.

The result is astonishing.

These days I don't trust my hearing as I used to so I played it for SWMBO without her knowing it wasnt the disk.

As some point the phone rang and I told her to lift the needle to pause the playback - you should have seen the confusion. Fooled her completely - and her hearing (as well as my daughter's) is excellent.

Now back to reality - I have no idea what use this experiment is in real terms. I am supplementing one dead technology with another. Just interesting I guess - unless I can find a ready source of tapes still.

Thoughts?

[Marvel]

Max,

I believe most video recorders used an fm system, to get you a 20-20k signal. It was put down as a linear track on the edge of the tape.Tthe audo quality is actually pretty good. A young man at a church I once attended had a couple mic preamps he built, feeding a nice Sony deck. He recorded a lot of the church's music events with PZMs and his vcr. A pcm track for audio was only a 32Khz sample rate, i think.

Alesis took he idea of helical scan recording and made an 8 track digital audio recorder, where the scans contained the audo data. A LOT of albums got made on those things. You could sync multiple units for mroe tracks. I know, bbecause I still have mine. 8 tracks of 20 bit audio on the equiv. of an S-VHS tape.

Sorry for ur hijack, Dave.

Bruce

[NOSValves]

Dave,

Do you have any experience with the M-Audio line of cards? I'm currently using the Audiophile 2496 and wondering how this compares.

[Marvel]

Craig,

I have one of those, and have found it to be excellent.

[Mallette]

Not a problem, Bruce. Your input and comments are always welcome.

Artto, I confined myself to the CD itself, but Bruce is right. My chain consists of mikes (I have several for various purposes and will comment if you wish), an HHB Radius 10 tube mike preamp, and the CD. I never use a mixer. If the pickup isn't right, I move the mikes. The Radius 10 has four channels available which allows me to do surround, and also secondary outputs which allows for an "alibi" recorder, a DAT or CD burner, or these days my Korg MR-1.

Max, you discovered what I did about 1985. I still have the Sony Betamax I bought about that time and some audio recordings I made on it. I fretted at the time that Sony dropped the ball big time by not marketing to the still pretty significant and influential audiophile market.

OTOH, I find it hard to believe you'd hear any difference between it and the Korg MR-1. Of course, I've no idea what your "mad money" budget is, but the Korg is cheap. I haven't checked lately, but I suspect you can get one for 300 or so. The 1 bit, 2.8mhz mode is more comparable to analog that to PCM in that it transparently transcodes to any other format, PCM or otherwise. Very versatile. It's also nice in being fiddle free and if you can hit the "record" button on that VHS deck already know how to use it.

In any event, glad you found a way to record LP's that is working for you.

Dave

[Mallette]

Dave,

Do you have any experience with the M-Audio line of cards? I'm currently using the Audiophile 2496 and wondering how this compares.

I have an Audiophile USB, now regrettably out of production. They turn up on Ebay occasionally. I like it because I can plug it into anything. I find it excellent. I think the M-Audio cards offer a lot for the money.

The big thing these days is the Intel 1701HD chip set. It's about as good as anything and comes right on the motherboard. It's even showing up in laptops. The Via HD audio chipsets are also outstanding and come on the several of their Pico and Nano ITX motherboards some of which are fanless and can be configured with solid state drives and embedded OS for a dead silent music server.

Dave

[artto]

Do any of you use Card Deluxe for live recording?

I'm using Oktava MC-012 condenser mics which need phantom voltage but if there's no phantom voltage there's no point in changing my setup from the E-mu 0404/Mackie 1202 combo

artto,

you will still need your mixer or preamps. I would look into better mic pre's than what comes on the Mackie. There are lots of choices, either tube or ss, not considered boutique, but would cost more than the Mackie by itself. A good mic pre can make you think you just bought very expensive mics.

I guess I'm confused (or badly behind the curve on this subject - although I shouldn't be).

I record two, sometimes three times a year for a local Choral, edit and master the recording, put together the artwork etc and sell the CD's back to the Choral members and for their resale.

These performances are recorded live-in-concert. Often there are also additional musicians such as a small chamber orchestra and guest performers. I usually try to limit my setup to a three mic array for the main pickup & an additional mic for vocal soloists since they typically aren't strong enough voices to belt it out. There is often little stage room left for moving the mics in any significant way to affect the sound. I'm trying to achieve a main sound pickup similar to the old Mercury Living Presence recordings or Telarc. The "mixing" is done live - usually once its set I don't touch it, except for the soloist fill-in mic which I often have to ride the gain because of the vocalist (this is an audition required Choral ~ but not professionals by any means).

I don't understand how I'm supposed to get four or possibly more channels reduced to two live-in-concert without a mixer

My current setup goes like this: Three Oktava MC 012 for the mains, a Shure Beta58 for the soloists (or an Oktava MC 012 with the hyper-cardiod capsule). The four or five mics go to the mixer which feeds two channel stereo to an E-mu 0404 in the computer. I use Sony Sound Forge for recording and mastering.

Ideally I would love to just take a laptop and be able to plug the mics directly into that but as far as know thats not yet possible. I'm getting tired of dragging so much gear out - the computer and monitor, the DAT machine Alesis Compressor (for the DAT), power supply and all the other stuff, mics, stands, cables, etc.

I also can't justfiy spending a ton of money on this unless I can use it for something else (like I can with a computer). OTOH I'd like to get a little more warmth & transparency (tube sound) without having to drag more stuff out. I'm trying to simplify the recording chain, while improving sound quality, having less stuff todrag out & setup ~ ~ without spending a lot a of money (ie: thousands).

If I'm understanding you guys correctly, I would need four (or more) mic preamps (that also supply the 48v phantom power), send the signal from each of these mic preamps to the sound card in the computer with four or more discrete channels, record this with multitrack software like Calkwalk, then later (not live) do the two channel mixing in Cakewalk and then export it to Sound Forge for two track editing, and finally to CD Architect for CD production.

And Dave, I can't find much on that HHB Radius 20 ~ looks like its been out of production?