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How to make the RP-160M come alive!


Tweaker256

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I'm intrigued that you'd want to mess with the crossover of these to bring them alive.

 

These speakers already sound alive to me - they are just a little hot on the top end. Don't get me wrong, I really like these speakers alot. Horizontal measurements....

 

723436242_KlipschRP-160MHorizontalPolar.jpg.94bfda63a7e8efb1e3c763b48c4ca850.jpg

 

879142976_KlipschRP-160MHorizontalFreq.png.1e62ce82071bfc89fee4f59e5c49c4c8.png

 

 

If I were to do anything with these I'd try to drop the output of the tweeter a little to bring up the bass in the mix. 

 

To do this accurately and retain the very nice off axis response you'd need to have good measurement gear and off axis measurements. 

 

I use a DIY turn table with 10 degree markings and Omnimic/Dats.

 

RP-160M.jpg.34cf32fd49b0e3a31d1ac62aee033780.jpg

 

 

RP-250C pictured on turn table...

 

282312150_250Chorizontalwide.jpg.d15dade1599b226e0833e16633d8e596.jpg

 

Vertical measurements of 160M (above/below) tweeter....

 

Klipsch RP-160M Vertical Freq.png

 

Measured resistance....

 

160M impedance.jpg

 

 

Keep up the experimenting and enjoy!  :emotion-22:

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The hot I agree with, that dip in the upper mid needs to be handled too though I have not seen how to design the notch and low roll off crossover on the woofer to do that as simply as stated.  Maybe I missed the "Part 2" but am very interested.  

 

The crossovers are always a point of contention due to cost and engineering though the drivers appear to be up to the task.

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The dip in the 1-2khz range would most likely be effectively dealt with by lowering the tweeter output to the same level. That could be as simple as a resistor or two in the tweeter circuit.

 

To do this change the right way I'd need to measure both drivers without the crossover in place and then model the existing crossover in XSim as a baseline. From there it is a simple process to iterate some changes in the crossover schematic to see what works. This is the approach I took for improving my KG 5.5's.

 

My friend that owns these has challenged me to do this for him. Perhaps I will someday.

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I do not notice any rise in the high end at all. I am also wondering if this is because of my living a high altitude, and the variance of humidity. I need to get REW setup, and do some measuring.

 

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I did the tweeter portion of the mod only.  Used a 9.1 ohm resistor.  I only did one at a time and compared the two against each other to determine of I wanted to continue.  In lie of proper measuring equipment, I was forced to use my ear.

 

I did not notice an increase in the tweeter output.

 

What I noticed can only be described as more detail and clarity.  Imaging is improved.  Dare I say that they disappear.  The modification was trivial.  Thank you to the OP for the suggestion.

 

As a side note, I have a set of Paradigm Ref 60 V4's in the same listening space along with an AB switch.  The 3 or 4 other people that heard both side by side immediately felt the  RP-160M sounded better.  These were untrained ears and the switch was made without amplitude adjustment, but for everyone to consistently and immediately say "these sound clearer" than the Digms, is quite remarkable to me given their price difference.

 

Regardless of any other subjective impressions,  I find these to be more a enjoyable speaker than previously, and have since de-listed them as for sale.  Maybe my favorite Klipsch speakers... for now.

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  • 6 months later...

This post seems to have run its course, but I went through it looking at info on my RP600Ms.  My crossover circuit board even says RP160 / RP600 on it.  I know the resistor and Capacitor values are identical and the Inductors most likely are the same values also.  I watched all the GR Research stuff on Danny's crossover mods, and have pretty much figured out what he did different than has been talked about here.  His results seem pretty good.  The stock curve shows a big hole at the crossover point, 1500Hz.

 

522888481_StockRP600Mcrossoverresponse.jpg.35a866a362f2c49c639435b76ab9e8d3.jpg

When Danny installed an entire new crossover of his own design, he achieved a remarkably flat out put, and also raised the crossover point to around 2200Hz.

 

2107005620_GRResearchRP600Mnewcrossover.jpg.a87eac792e62bdc448c41b230eaf7c4f.jpg

The bass driver got a lower value inductor, which extends the frequency that the woofer continues to play, and the 43uF electrolytic cap was replaced with a notch filter consisting of a Capacitor and a small inductor.  I think that mod by itself would really help even out the response curve by bringing the woofer output up, but he also used a couple Mills resistors and a lower value Sonicap in the tweeter circuit, as well as reversing the polarity.  It's a pretty remarkable output curve he achieved.  Incidently, Klipsch rates these at 96dB/W/M, but they measure more like 90.

 

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Have only done some virtually free mods to them so far, adding mass to the tractrix horn/waveguide to lower any resonance and the same thing to the stamped steel basket of the bass driver.  I'm going to do some cabinet bracing as well as they are very thin and resonant.  GR Research want to sell you $50 of NoRez, which is sort of Dynamat with foam rubber on it, but that, to me, only adds mass to the cabinet walls, it doesn't keep them from moving, and I feel both are important.  I used Dynamat on the woofer basket, and most of a tube of 3006 Ultra Siliconized acrylic sealant on the waveguides.  It stays a dense rubber consistency when it dries.

 

 

1654977015_IMG_5276lorez.thumb.jpg.c4f1b2cd51d38ad91ccb393961ef2093.jpg

 

 

IMG_5274.thumb.jpg.aa8457409793709a69dbc3ac1cc69cd1.jpg

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  • 2 months later...

Hi all! I just picked up a pair of these the other day on a smoking discontinued display model.  They are in perfect condition and look amazing.

 

After a few hours of listening I can't seem to dial them in and completely enjoy them.  There is just some harshness in high brass (aka trumpets) during my jazz band listening.  This effects other areas as well.

 

I've tried running Audyssey, tweaked Audyseey, turned it off, toed the speakers in (bad idea) and left them straight (abut 15 degrees off axis to primary listening position).

 

Have any of you experienced this?  If so how have you addressed it?  So many mod ideas in this thread!

 

Also, it looks like the 160M is really have a 600M with an updated tweeter?  Any try and retrofit the 160M with the updated tweeter?

 

 

Edited by paulgyro
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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/24/2020 at 6:51 AM, NBPK402 said:

Has anyone used a Minidsp 2x4HD crossover on these?

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk
 

Strange you should mention this, I was debating trying as a fun little project. 

 

The crossovers are the same as 600M, circuit boards have been 600 and 160 stamped on them.  I was considering performing the GR Research mods but instead of passive crossover build a miniDSP active. 

Edited by paulgyro
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Strange you should mention this, I was debating trying as a fun little project. 
 
The crossovers are the same as 600M, circuit boards have been 600 and 160 stamped on them.  I was considering performing the GR Research mods but instead of passive crossover build a miniDSP active. 
Please let me know how it goes... I will be ready to do mine after the first of the year, when I get my 2nd amp ready.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 4/30/2016 at 5:53 PM, Tweaker256 said:

Thanks everyone, if you can solder it's really not that hard. You don't need to go to extremes like I did to get much better sound from the RP series of speakers. I only replace what was already there with better components.

That killer horn tweeter's crossover consisted of a 9 ohm 10 watt resistor and a 3.9 uF cap in series with the + side and a 0.36 mH inductor across the + and - in parallel, that's all.

The woofer crossover is even easer, a 1.4mH inductor in series with the + side of the woofer and a 43uF cap across the + and - in parallel.

Remove the sandcastle resistor and replace it with a 4 ohm and a 5 ohm 12 watt Mills resistors soldered in series to make a 9 ohm, you can't buy a 9 ohm Mills resistor.

Now you have many choices from easy to complete rebuild. You can remove and replace the 3.9 uF cap in the tweeter circuit or bypass it, I choose both, the easiest would be to bypass it with a 0.1 uF Audyn True Copper Cap, yes that will increase it to 4 uF but that is only a 2.58% increase still within the manufacturing tolerances. Next bypass the 43uF cap in the woofer circuit with a 0.1 uF Audyn True Cooper Cap, that is the quick and dirty approach. Bypass means solder across in parallel. You will get 95% better sound.

Replacing the 43 uF cap requires rebuilding the crossover due to its size. You need to buy a 39 uF, a 3.9 uF and a 0.1 uF cap in parallel.

You can get all the above parts from Parts Experss for about $60.00.

Hey guys, 

 

I hope you are all well.

 

I just want to bump the conversation, because I just bought a pair of RP-160m and would like to upgrade their crossovers. 

 

I have studied electronics at high school like 20 years ago, but unfortunately there is not much left in my head and therefore I will appreciate some help with the following:

 

#Objective: I would like to keep the original crossover design of the 160s and replace some of the components to improve the sound quality while following the Pareto principle. 

 

#What I will likely do:

- Replace the 9 ohm stock resistor with a Jantzen MOX 9R1 10W or Mills 9R1 12W (both have 5% tolerance which I would assume will be within the designed tolerance)

- Replace the 3.9 uF stock caps in the tweeter circuit with matching Jantzen Standard Z-Cap

- Add 0,43uF Jantzen Cross Caps in parallel to the driver circuit stock capacitor (should result in less than 1% change in capacitance, I would assume the stock electrolytic caps would be with much higher tolerance)

 

#What I would also like to do:

- Substitute the 1.4mH iron-core inductor in the driver circuit with an air-core one

 

#What help do I need:

- Feedback on replacing the stock 9 ohm resistors with 9.1 ohm resistors - would that cause any trouble?

- Feedback on adding higher quality capacitor in parallel to the electrolytic one in the driver circuit - is it going to improve sound quality given the frequency of operation (up to 1.5KHz)?

- Has anyone measured the resistance of the 1.4mH inductor in the driver circuit and what would be the impact on the crossover performance if I swap it for air-core with the same inductance value but slightly different resistance?

 

Have a great week everyone!

 

Cheers,

Momchil

 

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On 12/9/2020 at 11:01 PM, paulgyro said:

I personally plan on using the GR Research RP-600M upgrade kit to get the most out of my 160Ms

Yeah, I also thought about it. But on the other hand I would like to fit in a much tighter budget. Currently the caps and the resistors would cost me about 20 euros + shipping ...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade

 

Encouraged by speedmadness and various comments about the GR Research upgrade, I did the following:

1. More or less use a circuit like GRR.

2. Replaced wires with Duelund tinned copper hookup wires.

3. Built a cross brace employing Constrained Layer Damping.

4. Glued the xo parts to a hardwood plywood flooring board using Goop.

5. Wrapped tweeter caps with QuietPutty.

6. Attached xo board to base of cabinet using Butyl tape to form another constrained layer damping.

 

The results are stunning - sounds like an entirely different spkrs. Before, I thought the RP-600M was nice for the price, but not great. Having been in the hobby and also tracked Stereophile for a few decades, I think their C ranking of these sprks is fair. The striking characters are their aliveness which makes for listening to Jazz and classical enjoyable in a not-large room. They are relatively not shouty like horns sometimes tend to be. But missing a degree of elegance, refinement and realness (which I admit normally come at a much higher price.)

 

But I must say I'm blown away by the SQ after the upgrades and after a couple hundred hours of burn-in.

 

Not only is the tone so much more organic and real (I have season subscriptions to symphonies and jazz performances, until Covid) - but there is a much more enveloping sense of the density of the soundstage. High hats, brushes and drum snaps are captivating. Voices and reeds are enchanting. Bass notes are much more emotional.

 

Not as accurate and neutral as my KEF LS/50 or as massive or as real a sound stage as my highly upgraded Magnepan 1.7. But totally enjoyable nonthelsss.

Now, watching movies are also breathtaking.

 

I had my doubts about spending this money (~USD180) on such a spkr.  But I am totally surprised by how the upgraded Klipsches have transformed into a jewel of my 2nd system (in my office). I look forward to listening to them all the time!

 

A few pics:

417686199_KlipschRP-600Mupgdassembledw_xlsx.thumb.jpg.dec51ceb9449302f70aac84eae884776.jpg

CLD Cross Brace #2 w.jpg

xo#2 on hdwd ply bd w.jpg

Cross Barce w CLD scheme.jpg

 

xo#2 pic 2 w.jpg

Klipsch RP-600M upgd xo circuit & layout w.jpg

Edited by dtossan
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14 hours ago, paulgyro said:

How did you come up with the crossover design? 

 

speedmadness posted both stock and GRR circuits on Posted August 12.

A search on the net came up with most values for the parts.

I then created a spreadsheet to calculate for the upgrade xo circuit: the input impedance, and the split of power sent to the tweeter vs the bass driver over the freq range 20Hz to 20kHz.

I then upgraded the xo on 1 spkr and compared to the stock spkr.

I initially put a 3.9ohm series R at the input to the twitter xo. The twitter sounded lifeless.

The spreadsheet confirmed tweeter was getting lower % of power above 5kHz compared to the stock circuit, and that a 1.5ohm would be a better value at which point the hi freq accentuation would be more or less tamed.

But at this point, I had burnt the xo in for 200hrs and I really loved the highs. 

 

When Amir in AudioScienceReview said that the stock RP-600M freq resp "peaking above 10kHz will sound bright", John Atkinson (of Stereophile) commented  #116 that wasn't his experience. And that "If the excess above 10kHz is small and the tweeter's dispersion is limited in this region (as they almost all are), then it can actually result in a neutral top-octave balance in all but small rooms. Brightness, I have found, tends to be due to too much energy between 5kHz and 10kHz."

 

My own listening tests agree, and I loved the highs so much that I set the series R=0. There is a degree of elegance and organicness to not only the highs, but to the entire freq band with the upgrade xo.

 

Choosing the ClarityCap CMR 2.5uF for the tweeter, bypassed by a Cornell Dubilier 940C 0.01uF 3000VDC bypass cap was probably most responsible for the mid and high freq improvement. The ClarityCap was chosen based on strong humblehomemadehifi ratings, plus a 25% sale at partsconnexion.

 

Perhaps the Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper hookup wires also helped.

 

I went with a slightly cheaper 3.3uF AuriCap XO for the woofer notch filter.

 

The problem at this point was too much boominess from the cabinet. The 1.3mH 14awg Solen Hepta Litz inductors probably contributed to that. The bass was getting prodigious.

 

That's when I implemented the constrained layer damped cross brace - an idea I borrowed from KEF's LS/50 White Paper. A stunning discovery.

 

Correction: My previous pics mislabeled my spkrs as RP-160M. In fact my Klipsch are the RP-600M. Pics have been corrected.

 

my Klipsch upgd xo caps & inductors w.jpg

Edited by dtossan
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