mustang guy Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 I just installed a GFCI circuit breaker to the swimming pool motor outlet. With the motor plugged in and in the off position, the breaker stays on. As soon as I turn the motor on, it trips the GFCI. I thought it was the motor, so I unplugged the pool motor and plugged in a Dremmel tool and reset the GFCI. As soon as I turn the Dremmel on, it trips the GFCI again. There is not another GFCI on the circuit, so that's not it, and the outlets are brand new outdoor type outlets in an outdoor enclosure. I tested for voltage from the hot to the ground with a multimeter, and there is a ground. What should I do to troubleshoot this, or does this sound like something you have heard about before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 Sounds like a faulty breaker to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karsoncookie Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 Does the motor plug directly into the GFI, or a downstream outlet? How do you turn the motor on ? Is there a switch that controls the power to the GFI ? Lars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted May 8, 2016 Author Share Posted May 8, 2016 I figured it out guys. The neutral needs to be dedicated from the GFCI to the outlet. There is a second neutral that goes to the bus. Everything is working fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 I figured it out guys. The neutral needs to be dedicated from the GFCI to the outlet. There is a second neutral that goes to the bus. Everything is working fine. I believe that you should receive some kind of reward. The average dude would never have figured that out. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karsoncookie Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 (edited) Note to a PM from a forum member -- GFCI does not NEED a ground to function. They are often installed in OLDD homes with no Ground run in branch ckts, and function the same. Picture in your mind the Lawyer old school balance beam scale. You put yer Pastrami on one side, then put calibrated weights on the other side till it balances. GFCI functions same way. ALL it cares about, is BALANCE. Same current "in" to "out" Hot and Neutral of course balance in a closed isolated ckt. The hot current needs to match the neutral, or it dumps. Now , of course, we also want an equipment ground, but not MANDATORY for GFCI function. https://www.nachi.or...o-ground-22686/ Lars Edited May 8, 2016 by Karsoncookie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 We especially want a ground/bond for pool equipment... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karsoncookie Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 We especially want a ground/bond for pool equipment... Absolutely. Are you guys familiar with the grounding/ bonding (similar to pools) of dairy cow milking facilitys? Very interesting, to not have any voltage variations in the ground they stand on . Very interesting. Affects milk production. Lars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Sargent Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 Affects milk production. Took a smart cookie to figure that one out I bet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Affects milk production. Took a smart cookie to figure that one out I bet! He was at the top of his class; udderly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Note to a PM from a forum member -- GFCI does not NEED a ground to function. They are often installed in OLDD homes with no Ground run in branch ckts, and function the same. Picture in your mind the Lawyer old school balance beam scale. You put yer Pastrami on one side, then put calibrated weights on the other side till it balances. GFCI functions same way. ALL it cares about, is BALANCE. Same current "in" to "out" Hot and Neutral of course balance in a closed isolated ckt. The hot current needs to match the neutral, or it dumps. Now , of course, we also want an equipment ground, but not MANDATORY for GFCI function. https://www.nachi.or...o-ground-22686/ Lars Thanks for the info Lars. I had to look up the Lawyer term. It seems to be the "Scales of Justice" type. It may be informative to point out: Even in a two wire A.C. system, the black is "hot" and is carrying the 120 volt RMS a.c. going above and below ground potential in the sine wave. The white is "neutral" and is in theory at 0 volts. It does mean that only the black (think of death) is potentially lethal. It is one of the two which is switched by a wall switch. Switching the neural is a big no-no. Consider the grade school science experiment with a battery and a flashlight bulb. It is a circuit and all the current going out of the plus side of the battery (in "conventional current flow") goes back into the negative side of the battery. Similarly in our pool motor or hair dryer, the current in the black "hot" should equal the current in the "white" neutral. Yup, even though the neutral is at zero volts, there is current flowing. The currents will be equal (balanced) in the two wires unless there is a "ground fault." This is when the current in the "hot" is different than the current in the "neutral" which means some portion of the current is going to ground rather than back into the neutral. Often that means the current is going into someone's body and then to ground. Electrocution !!!! This should trip the device. I've read that even when the device works and trips, a person can get a jolt, but hopefully not enough or long enough to do damage. One scheme to this, say with a hair dryer, is to wrap a couple of turns of the hot and neutral around a toroidal transformer core, which also has a third winding which is the sensor winding. As long as the current in the hot and neutral are the same, the magnetic fields they cause in the core oppose each other to zero. But when they are not equal (because there is a third path to ground - zap) there is a resulting magnetic flow in the core which induces current into the sensor winding, and this, amplified, trips an internal relay. Well, more than you want to know. I thought the lawyer scale needed some explanation. Smile. WMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) Note to a PM from a forum member -- GFCI does not NEED a ground to function. They are often installed in OLDD homes with no Ground run in branch ckts, and function the same. Picture in your mind the Lawyer old school balance beam scale. You put yer Pastrami on one side, then put calibrated weights on the other side till it balances. GFCI functions same way. ALL it cares about, is BALANCE. Same current "in" to "out" Hot and Neutral of course balance in a closed isolated ckt. The hot current needs to match the neutral, or it dumps. Now , of course, we also want an equipment ground, but not MANDATORY for GFCI function. https://www.nachi.or...o-ground-22686/ Lars I have installed GFCI outlets in lieu of grounded outlets in old houses with no easy way to ground, like the metal shielding, in order to provide 3 prongs and some protection. GFCI outlets contain decals that must be adhered to every outlet that does not have a common ground in order to meet code. The label says "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND". Lots of people don't know about that. Thanks for bringing it up. Edited May 9, 2016 by mustang guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Ahem........the only reason neutral is 0 volts is because it is bonded to ground and is therefore the reference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karsoncookie Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Good comments above. We are doing good here, so now, just to ask - Do we all understand the difference between the "Grounding" , and "Grounded" conductor ?? Two different things. Lars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Note to a PM from a forum member -- GFCI does not NEED a ground to function. They are often installed in OLDD homes with no Ground run in branch ckts, and function the same. Picture in your mind the Lawyer old school balance beam scale. You put yer Pastrami on one side, then put calibrated weights on the other side till it balances. GFCI functions same way. ALL it cares about, is BALANCE. Same current "in" to "out" Hot and Neutral of course balance in a closed isolated ckt. The hot current needs to match the neutral, or it dumps. Now , of course, we also want an equipment ground, but not MANDATORY for GFCI function. https://www.nachi.or...o-ground-22686/ Lars Thanks for the info Lars. I had to look up the Lawyer term. It seems to be the "Scales of Justice" type. It may be informative to point out: Even in a two wire A.C. system, the black is "hot" and is carrying the 120 volt RMS a.c. going above and below ground potential in the sine wave. The white is "neutral" and is in theory at 0 volts. It does mean that only the black (think of death) is potentially lethal. It is one of the two which is switched by a wall switch. Switching the neural is a big no-no. Consider the grade school science experiment with a battery and a flashlight bulb. It is a circuit and all the current going out of the plus side of the battery (in "conventional current flow") goes back into the negative side of the battery. Similarly in our pool motor or hair dryer, the current in the black "hot" should equal the current in the "white" neutral. Yup, even though the neutral is at zero volts, there is current flowing. The currents will be equal (balanced) in the two wires unless there is a "ground fault." This is when the current in the "hot" is different than the current in the "neutral" which means some portion of the current is going to ground rather than back into the neutral. Often that means the current is going into someone's body and then to ground. Electrocution !!!! This should trip the device. I've read that even when the device works and trips, a person can get a jolt, but hopefully not enough or long enough to do damage. One scheme to this, say with a hair dryer, is to wrap a couple of turns of the hot and neutral around a toroidal transformer core, which also has a third winding which is the sensor winding. As long as the current in the hot and neutral are the same, the magnetic fields they cause in the core oppose each other to zero. But when they are not equal (because there is a third path to ground - zap) there is a resulting magnetic flow in the core which induces current into the sensor winding, and this, amplified, trips an internal relay. Well, more than you want to know. I thought the lawyer scale needed some explanation. Smile. WMcD Conventional current flow? You must be older than the hills. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 Good comments above. We are doing good here, so now, just to ask - Do we all understand the difference between the "Grounding" , and "Grounded" conductor ?? Two different things. Lars I don't. It sounds like past and present tense of the verb ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Good comments above. We are doing good here, so now, just to ask - Do we all understand the difference between the "Grounding" , and "Grounded" conductor ?? Two different things. Lars The "grounded" conductor is the white current carrying wire we usually call neutral that is bonded(attached) to ground at the service panel. The "grounding" conductor is what we usually all call ground that only carries current when there is a fault...... Or when there is a ground loop causing noise in your audio system driving you out of your mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 (edited) Conventional current flow? You must be older than the hills. What? You don't like hole flow? Edited May 10, 2016 by babadono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 (edited) I barely understand GFCI as it is, but my noodle really got baked recently when I started reading up on AFCI. I was having trouble with sub amps, any big hit and it would shut off. Makes sense when you figure out how they work. My electrician had installed one in the theater room because he thought it should be wired like a bedroom. Bad move. Edited May 10, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Conventional current flow? You must be older than the hills. What? You don't like hole flow? I believe they switched from hole flow to electron flow sometime in 1932. Then some dude used quantum mechanics to create the transistor and they used hole flow again. Hey, what do I know. I'm 4 years passed my design life so things don't work so good anymore. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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