Dense person with R-112SW sub

[gnorthern]

I replaced two great speakers with built in subs with a pair of RP-280F speakers, KS-525-THX surround sound speakers thanks to this forum, and a R-112SW subwoofer.  The sub is connected to the receiver with a Klipsch wireless device via the sub out.  I have an Onkyo TX-NR1010 receiver.  Real basic questions.  Where should I set the low pass filter and to what should I set the phase? 

 

I cannot get the system to sound right to me.  Really deep vocals and certain bass notes develop an unnatural booming which I did not get with my previous speakers.   I am pretty sure the volume on the sub is set right since the automatic setup in my receiver tells me to adjust the volume until it is at 70 db, which I do.  That means the only variables left are the crossover and phase.

 

Any suggestions.

 

Thanks for all responses.

[CECAA850]

Set the phase to zero if it's on the same wall as your mains. Are you using the crossover in your receiver?

[derrickdj1]

Move the sub further from the wall?

[WMcD]

Without knowing your receiver but . . . .

 

Usually the crossover point on the receiver's setting menu  should be set to 70 Hz.  It is a good starting point and might be the default setting. 

 

I expect that is where your sub starts working too, i.e. its highest freq.  So you want to make sure that the mains don't have output below 70 Hz.   

 

Also, there should be a settings menu so the main speakers are set to "small."  You may say, "But my mains are pretty big."  Nonetheless, the "small" setting should prevent any freqs below 70 Hz or the crossover point from being sent to the mains. 

 

The thought is that one possible cause of booming, without the "small" setting, is that the mains and sub are both sounding below 70 Hz and that is not the best practice. 

 

Human voices booming below 70 Hz seems a bit odd but I'd try the above.

 

WMcD

Edited May 26, 2016 by WMcD

[Paducah Home Theater]

Really deep vocals and certain bass notes develop an unnatural booming which I did not get with my previous speakers.

Read the following review on the 15. The 12 is probably the same way. If so it would explain what you're experiencing. Try to also use the crossover on the back of the sub and set it to 80.

http://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch-r-115sw-subwoofer-reviewed/?page=2

Edited May 26, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[mustang guy]

If your sub in in front, then there should be a nice overlap of the mains and the sub frequencies. AVR's don't allow enough of this, and consequentially the bass tends to be weaker than it should. AVR's goal is to make a HT sound and relegate the very low frequencies to the sub and the bass, midbass and higher to the rest of the speakers. I have played with this until I am blue in the face, and the only way I have found to make this work is to make the cutoff frequency on the AVR much lower for the mains (eg: 50Hz), and the cutoff on the sub itself as high as possible (eg: 220Hz). Placing a second sub like the R-115SW in the back of the room with the sub cutoff (on the sub itself) very low like 50Hz will fill the room with LFE better, and you can adjust the phase of that sub until the room sounds best to you.

 

Here is a good article:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxgUOGOB5HbfNkh6LUtHX09aTzA/view

Edited May 26, 2016 by mustang guy

[gnorthern]

Thanks for all the information.  I'll be spending the weekend experimenting using this.  I have no recollection of a crossover in the receiver, but my bet is that there is one, and I find the suggestion to set the main speakers to small interesting since I saw that and thought "can't be small."

[Paducah Home Theater]

Have you checked the crossover on the sub?  What is it set to?  Shouldn't even be an issue but it kind of is on the 15.  Set it to 80 and see if it helps.  

[CECAA850]

Have you checked the crossover on the sub?  What is it set to?  Shouldn't even be an issue but it kind of is on the 15.  Set it to 80 and see if it helps.  

 

 

If there's a crossover set in the receiver, I'd run the sub crossover all the way up.

[Paducah Home Theater]

 

Have you checked the crossover on the sub?  What is it set to?  Shouldn't even be an issue but it kind of is on the 15.  Set it to 80 and see if it helps.  

 

 

If there's a crossover set in the receiver, I'd run the sub crossover all the way up.

 

 

Yes that's what you would normally do.  The 15's can sound boomy if you do this though, read that review I posted earlier and look at the graph.  I've had three of them in two different rooms plus installed one in a customer's house and had to do this.  Unsure about the 12 but it's probably built in the same manner.  

 

 

 

"The only weird thing about the R-115SW's frequency response is that big rise, peaking at 70 Hz. Note that it disappears when the crossover is engaged, and you get an almost perfectly flat response with a -3dB point at 80 Hz--exactly what you're supposed to get. So, while the sub doesn't measure flat without a crossover (which would never be the case), it should deliver a fairly flat response with one. If your receiver has an adjustable crossover slope, I'd recommend setting it to 3rd-order (-18dB/octave) response, which is closest to the response of the sub's internal crossover."

 

Most receivers aren't that steep.  That blue hump is well within the realm of boomy voices and whatnot.  A good example is Colombiana when the drug cartel leader meets the little girl.  If you're crossing the subs over fairly high and you're in LFE mode, you're probably going to get some of this boominess.  

Edited May 27, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[CECAA850]

That's odd.  You'd think the graph would indicate an issue with the crossover in the receiver.  Were they all the same brand or different?  Nearfield measurements correct?

[Paducah Home Theater]

Were they all the same brand or different?

The ones I had hooked up to them were a Marantz SR-7009 in my 2,700 cubic foot theater room, an older JVC with no room correction in a 9,000 cubic foot room, and a fairly entry level 5-6 year old Pioneer in a very large full size basement. All of them had an internal crossover.

 

Nearfield measurements correct?

In terms of the review:

"I did CEA-2010A measurements using an Earthworks M30 measurement microphone, an M-Audio Mobile Pre USB interface and the CEA-2010 measurement software running on the Wavemetric Igor Pro scientific software package. I took these measurements at two meters peak output, then scaled them up to one-meter equivalent per CEA-2010A reporting requirements. The two sets of measurements I have presented here--CEA-2010A and traditional method--are functionally identical, but the traditional measurement employed by most audio websites and many manufacturers reports results at two-meter RMS equivalent, which is -9dB lower than CEA-2010A. An L next to the result indicates that the output was dictated by the subwoofer's internal circuitry (i.e., limiter), and not by exceeding the CEA-2010A distortion thresholds. Averages are calculated in pascals."

In LFE mode I _really_ like it from 60 hz and down, just didn't like the upper end as much. When I say boomy I'm not talking about the 35-50 hz one hit wonder stuff, it's more like 70-120 hz had an unnatural resonance very similar to what that review found. That author is much smarter than I am and he noticed the same thing. I'm just wondering if the OP is noticing this same thing. The crossover can tame this nicely if so.

Edited May 27, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[CECAA850]

Thanks.

[derrickdj1]

You would think with the XO  and a typical 4 th order LR , things should be well control.  I wonder what the room bass decay was like.

[RoboKlipsch]

MLO maybe Klipsch designed the sub assuming a crossover of 80 or less and built the curve to be flat with the crossover. I would think most buyers of a 15 are planning to go low and cross at 80 or less?