Wow! 50 dead in early morning night club shooting?

[teaman]

I agree with you in part Keith, I should have said these people are fighting in the name of their interpretation of their religion. VJ's ties to radical activists like Dohrn, Davis and Ayers are well documented. Not the company I would want my president to keep, although I doubt his views are different from theirs.

 

Like I said earlier it is okay to disagree, I just feel the fact of discussing differences in opinion is at least a starting point to solving the problems. It is no different to arguing the facts about gun ownership and gun control. Both sides feel they are right and somewhere in the middle is where the truth lies.

 

 

Tim

[Travis In Austin]

Pretty much shooting fish in a barrel no? With people piled into a nightclub with few or no windows and doors to escape it seems to me very simple for someone to hit this type of "Soft target". I will have to disagree with some of you though. This ideology is not something you can curb or change. It is a religious belief by radical Islamists that will stop at nothing to destroy the west and the way we live. I do not feel sorry for the Muslims living in the US as previously stated by another poster, out of 1.7 Billion Muslims I can count on one hand how many speak out against this violence. Understand full well that if they condone it publicly, they will become targets for betraying their faith. I have studied plenty on what is going on right now in the world and this is not something that is going to fade anytime soon. Our president and other world leaders failing to call it what it is strengthens the views of these nut jobs. Being a Muslim himself and sympathizing with their beliefs only endangers the US people further. I am not trying to make this political just stating facts. If he were not a Muslim and he took a Muslim name he would have been killed by them. Look at Mohammed Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and others, they changed their names once they assumed their new Muslim name and took on their beliefs....not before. Very few people know who Barry Soetoro even is.

Your either ignorant or an idiot. Nothing personal.

Whatever efforts you have made to study the issue have been made in vain. You might what to consider a reliable source for facts rather than email blasts or whatever else you are using to "study".

Yep, I checked. Neither and idiot or ignorant.

You can disagree with me, it is after all a free, or sort of free country that we live in. You can look up everything I posted online and fact check them if you like. Of course nobody inside is going to tell you the facts if it undermines those in power. Mark my words, in a few years after Obama leaves office he will boast of being a Muslim and how he helped to change the world and bring people together. Yes, he is that arrogant. Just like his mentor in the WH. She is an Iranian born woman that has felt the plight of Muslims her entire life. Do you really believe that the president is unaware of the challenges that ISIS/ISIL present to us in the west? He has downplayed all of their actions at every chance. He lies every time he opens his mouth. Once again, if you disagree with me, it's okay as I am not offended. You can believe whatever you like. I do not hate Muslims for what they believe, in fact they are steadfast in their beliefs, as wrong as they might seem. Very few Christians or others of faith stand true to their beliefs like the Muslims do.

I was hoping ignorant, afraid it is probably the latter.

Keep studying.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

[teaman]

Hmm, not sure where I stated he would not recite the pledge of allegiance but whatever....not that we have not gone round and round every time we both post in a thread. I never said I was a scholar, I don't claim to be. I do read an awful lot about things I am interested in though and I don't know why it is wrong to stay informed on topics.

 

Not sure where you get off insulting, or trying to insult people all the time though. Please refrain from insulting me at every turn if you can though, since you don't know anything about me. I always try to keep myself calm in discussions and try not to inflict personal attacks. We share a forum, that is all we know about each other.

Edited June 13, 2016 by teaman

[Travis In Austin]

Carry is prohibited in liquor serving establishments in FL, and also I believe other states. Lars

Thank you. It was reported that the shooter didn't have any problem walking into a gun store and buying a high-capacity magazine. That's one thing I'd like to see controlled.

It's being reported that the suspect was on the FBI radar and had been interviewed by them a couple of times. He still bought his weapons legally - which require an FBI background check. I'm convinced that our government is incompetent to the point that it doesn't matter what laws are passed regarding buying a gun or a high-capacity magazine and that It's nothing more than a false sense of security implemented by the three stooges.

Nothing will result from this but a further loss of freedoms. Until the next act of terrorism committed by someone or some people that could have been prevented by a competent entity.

Does Israel, surrounded by enemies, have such issues? No.

And then, when it does happen again here, more calls for the loss of more freedoms will be the answer from a completely incompetent government. And many will agree.

Sad.

Isreal has pervasive and strict gun control. One of the requirements to obtain a license is to undergo and pass a physical and mental examination.

They also have universal health coverage which includes mental health treatment.

Does Isreal have issues with terrorist attacks? Since mid-September last year during this latest Intifada they have suffered over 500 casualties, 35 dead. The Palestinians have incurred about 5 times that amount.

Terrorism is so ingrained over there it is just part of life in some areas. Maybe that has changed since I went, and my friends from there came over in the 70s to 80s, all say the same thing. It was part of life growing up for them.

[Travis In Austin]

Hmm, not sure where I stated he would not recite the pledge of allegiance but whatever....not that we have not gone round and round every time we both post in a thread. I never said I was a scholar, I don't claim to be. I do read an awful lot about things I am interested in though and I don't know why it is wrong to stay informed on topics.

Not sure where you get off insulting, or trying to insult people all the time though. Please refrain from insulting me at every turn if you can though, since you don't know anything about me. I always try to keep myself calm in discussions and try not to inflict personal attacks. We share a forum, that is all we know about each other.

You are a fringe theorist.

You say you studied, not me. You say you are dealing in facts. You throw a blanket statement out there that President Obama is Muslim, because you have studied it. Now you are saying you read up on topics.

I agree, it is good to be well informed, however, you are only as well informed as your source material. I don't know what your source material is, but you are uttering stuff put out by fringe theorists. It has been throughly debunked by credible journalists. He isn't Muslim.

I linked just one example, from SNOPES, I didn't quote for the one sentence aboutnthe pledge of alligence, I linked that site because the section that debunks the Muslim myth is written at a pretty basic level, with sources from before he was first elected president. Nothing has changed, he still isn't Muslim.

I think somewhere you suggested that he changed his name to an Islamic name. Those were the other crazy emails that made the rounds about 5 years ago. Those have all been debunked as well. Same site, and numerous mainstream media articles are available on that. But I am happy to read anything you have on the subject, as I sincerely believe it is important to be well informed.

Even his first opponent, when a lady asked a question in a town hall about Obama being Islamic he corrected her very quickly.

It has nothing to do with you personally, I don't know a thing about you personally. I can say this, if anyone, not just you, posts fringe, unsubstantiated, debunked, or otherwise groindless statements in this forum, it will affect their credibility.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. There are many skeptics on here to challange you on that.

You posted it for shock value to see what kind of reaction it would get, I think the reaction is what you would expect from a bunch of well read individuals such as yourself.

[Travis In Austin]

Pretty much shooting fish in a barrel no? With people piled into a nightclub with few or no windows and doors to escape it seems to me very simple for someone to hit this type of "Soft target". I will have to disagree with some of you though. This ideology is not something you can curb or change. It is a religious belief by radical Islamists that will stop at nothing to destroy the west and the way we live. I do not feel sorry for the Muslims living in the US as previously stated by another poster, out of 1.7 Billion Muslims I can count on one hand how many speak out against this violence. Understand full well that if they condone it publicly, they will become targets for betraying their faith. I have studied plenty on what is going on right now in the world and this is not something that is going to fade anytime soon. Our president and other world leaders failing to call it what it is strengthens the views of these nut jobs. Being a Muslim himself and sympathizing with their beliefs only endangers the US people further. I am not trying to make this political just stating facts. If he were not a Muslim and he took a Muslim name he would have been killed by them. Look at Mohammed Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and others, they changed their names once they assumed their new Muslim name and took on their beliefs....not before. Very few people know who Barry Soetoro even is.

Your either ignorant or an idiot. Nothing personal.

Whatever efforts you have made to study the issue have been made in vain. You might what to consider a reliable source for facts rather than email blasts or whatever else you are using to "study".

Yep, I checked. Neither and idiot or ignorant.

You can disagree with me, it is after all a free, or sort of free country that we live in. You can look up everything I posted online and fact check them if you like. Of course nobody inside is going to tell you the facts if it undermines those in power. Mark my words, in a few years after Obama leaves office he will boast of being a Muslim and how he helped to change the world and bring people together. Yes, he is that arrogant. Just like his mentor in the WH. She is an Iranian born woman that has felt the plight of Muslims her entire life. Do you really believe that the president is unaware of the challenges that ISIS/ISIL present to us in the west? He has downplayed all of their actions at every chance. He lies every time he opens his mouth. Once again, if you disagree with me, it's okay as I am not offended. You can believe whatever you like. I do not hate Muslims for what they believe, in fact they are steadfast in their beliefs, as wrong as they might seem. Very few Christians or others of faith stand true to their beliefs like the Muslims do.

Well we know where you go to keep up on your reading.

I think one SNOPES article is more than sufficient to address unsupported statements without any references. Had there been a reference I might have had to find something specific,

Maybe his ID card at Columbia with his former name on it.

[JL Sargent]

Shooters ex wife had this to day:

 

“He would be perfectly normal and happy, joking, laughing one minute -- the next minute his temper… his body would just [go] totally the opposite,” Sitora Yusufiy, 27, told ABC News. “Anger, emotionally violent and that later evolved into abuse, to beating.

“After being abused and after trying to do that and see the good in him, I can honestly say this is a sick person. This was a sick person that was really confused and went crazy,” she said.

[Woofers and Tweeters]

 

More people are killed with hammers and other blunt objects that rifles

Killers usually pick soft targets. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

I think you are overstating that data. I think the Other-Type of Gun Not Stated catagory is too large a number to draw that inference.

I only stated the fact, not overstated. Look at the numbers of people killed with knives. 

The FBI statistics, which rely on reporting from local and state jurisdictions are limited in that regard. There is also significant under-reporting.

I agree that there will be information that isn't applied, such as the victims who were beaten most of the way to death. 

There is specific data on "mass" killings and shootings in the US. I'm pretty sure hammer or blunt force object isn't going to be listed. Just a wild guess would tell me that most are going to involve a semi-auto rifle, with either "high capacity" or multiple magazines.

The gun is not to blame, the people who do the killing is. 

"Killers usually pick soft targets." I think killers always pick soft targets, but having a gun within your reach doesn't transform you out of the soft target catagory either.

Taking guns away from law abiding, mentally capable people only makes for more and softer targets - agree?

 

[Woofers and Tweeters]

 

 

 

Carry is prohibited in liquor serving establishments in FL, and also I believe other states. Lars

Thank you. It was reported that the shooter didn't have any problem walking into a gun store and buying a high-capacity magazine. That's one thing I'd like to see controlled.

It's being reported that the suspect was on the FBI radar and had been interviewed by them a couple of times. He still bought his weapons legally - which require an FBI background check. I'm convinced that our government is incompetent to the point that it doesn't matter what laws are passed regarding buying a gun or a high-capacity magazine and that It's nothing more than a false sense of security implemented by the three stooges.

Nothing will result from this but a further loss of freedoms. Until the next act of terrorism committed by someone or some people that could have been prevented by a competent entity.

Does Israel, surrounded by enemies, have such issues? No.

And then, when it does happen again here, more calls for the loss of more freedoms will be the answer from a completely incompetent government. And many will agree.

Sad.

Isreal has pervasive and strict gun control. One of the requirements to obtain a license is to undergo and pass a physical and mental examination.

They also have universal health coverage which includes mental health treatment.

Does Isreal have issues with terrorist attacks? Since mid-September last year during this latest Intifada they have suffered over 500 casualties, 35 dead. The Palestinians have incurred about 5 times that amount.

Terrorism is so ingrained over there it is just part of life in some areas. Maybe that has changed since I went, and my friends from there came over in the 70s to 80s, all say the same thing. It was part of life growing up for them.

 

Before 1948, they lived in peace. 

[Skelt]

How did the US President come to such quick conclusion that this was an act of terror and so slow to call the Fort Hood shooting the a same?

[jjptkd]

I'm just completely baffled by some of the replies here. We are being systematically attacked by one of the largest and deadliest terrorist groups in history, they've even brought the fight to American soil, they just killed 50 Americans, in America, not in some desert somewhere but here at home and some of the suggestions being offered here are to take away our guns?

[JJkizak]

What is curious to me is this person who the FBI is watching for two years suddenly buys a gun and ammunition legally and a bell doesn't go off in the FBI bureau-ocracy? Or a memo is put in the  box on the desk of the guy who is sup[posed to ring the bell? Or does it go before a committee whose members are on vacation?

JJK

[Don Richard]

How many Americans are killed by Homemade bombs compared to guns?

 

The largest terrorist slaughter in our country was done with a bomb. Remember Oklahoma City and Timothy  McVeigh? 168 dead and nearly 700 injured. Bombs are more efficient killers than guns, by far.

[Fish]

http://www.fireandreamitchell.com/2016/06/12/seddique-mateen-father-of-orlando-terrorists-visited-state-department/

[Woofers and Tweeters]

What is curious to me is this person who the FBI is watching for two years suddenly buys a gun and ammunition legally and a bell doesn't go off in the FBI bureau-ocracy? Or a memo is put in the  box on the desk of the guy who is sup[posed to ring the bell? Or does it go before a committee whose members are on vacation?

JJK

Do you think that the powers that be would let something like this happen just to win support? They were watching McVey, they were warned about 911. Before McVey the masses were upset about Ruby Ridge and Waco. They needed something to lake them look like victims. 911 was a great excuse to invade Iraq.

Where's my tinfoil hat?

[Bella]

I'm just completely baffled by some of the replies here. We are being systematically attacked by one of the largest and deadliest terrorist groups in history, they've even brought the fight to American soil, they just killed 50 Americans, in America, not in some desert somewhere but here at home and some of the suggestions being offered here are to take away our guns?

 

Perhaps there is an agenda? I don't have proof - nobody does - but people can see it. You need only look at the history of their responses every time something like this happens. Only this time, it is becoming glaringly obvious. Your post describes perfectly the illogical response of our political leader(s) over this latest incident. They can carefully disguise their responses to similar domestic incidents to call for more gun control and the people will be none the wiser. Over time, with enough incidents that fit their political agenda, they can become successful. 

 

This time, anyone with a careful eye will see what you have seen: we have now had (at least) a 3rd terrorist attack on our soil from a foreign enemy that has openly stated they want to do us harm and kill our people and the response from our president after one of these successful attacks is that we need more gun control. A response that is ludicrous; misses the mark; irresponsible; politically motivated. He'll still use these dead and broken bodies to further a political ideology, because they are opportunists. But it is at least easier to see what he/they truly are: at the very least anti-American, for attempting to dismantle a bedrock Right of the American people.  

 

Even now, after suffering an attack from a foreign enemy, the opportunistic democratic presidential candidate is calling for a reinstatement on the ban of 'assault rifles.' Sorry, the proper response to a foreign attack on your soil is not to dismantle one of the rights your country was founded on. And people vote for these candidates? She couldn't be further from the mark if she tried!

 

What constitutionally grounded government directly and consistently attacks one of the guaranteed Rights claimed for the citizenry at every opportunity and can still be deemed Patriotic? What individual supports these people and still claim they themselves are patriotic? 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Bella

[Gilbert]

 

Our President is soon to speak, we will see how obvious it is to him ----

 

Of course he gets it. He has had to address this kind of situation WAY too many times before.

 

 

 

For some that would be debatable, but based on his past rhetoric, I think not. He doesn't.

 

 

 

 

You gotta admire his efficiency...

My guess it wasn't as hard as you think. It seems if you want to kill alot of people the AR 15 would be a good choice.

 

 

 

Not as good as a cheap Mossberg and a few rounds of 00-buck

Edited June 13, 2016 by Gilbert

[Bella]

What is curious to me is this person who the FBI is watching for two years suddenly buys a gun and ammunition legally and a bell doesn't go off in the FBI bureau-ocracy? Or a memo is put in the  box on the desk of the guy who is sup[posed to ring the bell? Or does it go before a committee whose members are on vacation?

JJK

 

Incompetence. Plain and simple in my view. The answer will be to throw more money at the incompetence. That is how incompetent power fixes any problem, by refusing to acknowledge their own incompetence and instead blame 'not enough resources.'

 

Remember also, the NSA is collecting all the phone records and electronic data for practically every American. Computers listening for keywords and flagging anything for review that is suspicious. Or so they say? Perhaps they are...but perhaps they aren't flagging keywords that terrorists would be using? Otherwise, how can they explain San Bernadino, Boston, and now Orlando?

 

Regardless, billions upon billions being spent every year for the past 15 years all in the name of fighting terrorists. We are removing our shoes and belts at airports and women being physically searched and touched. We are actively being forced to surrender our 4th amendment rights. But it doesn't seem a single incident of terrorism has been thwarted by these incompetent boobs.

[CECAA850]

Well, this thread certainly took off this weekend.  I'll lock and poll the other moderators for opinions.

[dtel]

No need to poll me, I almost did it last night but it was really late and I didn't want to read back a little.