mustang guy Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 I wonder if anybody has done cost/benefit analysis on vertical farms as compared to traditional farming. Wouldn't it be great if forests could be planted where corn currently is? Imagine canopy's of trees in the great planes in 100 years. Photosynthesis consumes CO2 and spits out O2. If vertical farms could be pre-engineered, hauled and erected efficiently, we could be using that land for wood production, oxygen production, and more importantly leaving a cleaner cooler Earth for our descendants for the next millennia. I am hopeful that vertical farming becomes this efficient some day. It would solve world hunger problems, create a new industry, provide parks and with selective timber management it would provide wood. If we could lead the way on this, it could be stamped out in other countries and in other lands. It would require less of our precious water, it would mean less fertilizer and insecticide pollution, it may mean less cancer, and in general I cannot think of a negative which would not be offset by a much greater positive in any region where they would do this. What are your thoughts? Would the great planes just look silly with trees instead of wheat? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 I've never heard of vertical farming. Where does the water come from? Trees use a lot more water than corn an I've seen fields of dried up corn due to lack of hydration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 I've seen them on TV. They are used in cities where there is a lack of land for traditional farming and gardening. They provide food much closer to the consumer, saving transportation costs. It's a cool concept. There probably aren't many trees on the great plains for a reason, but there is also a lot of farmland that has been cleared of trees which could be reforested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted June 16, 2016 Moderators Share Posted June 16, 2016 Thought I read something about this a while back, so I went looking. http://www.greenoptimistic.com/united-states-trees/#.V2LJkTH2ahc http://forestry.about.com/library/bl_us_forest_acre_trend.htm "Thanks to decades of forest growth exceeding harvesting rates the US officially has more trees now compared to 100 years ago. The United States has the fourth largest forest estate of any nation, with 8% of the world’s forests or about 300 million hectares of forest, exceeded only by the Russian Federation, Brazil and Canada. Thanks to sustainable harvesting practices, creation of National Parks and less land being turned to agriculture the rate of forest growth has steadily climbed in the US. In fact, many forestry companies now plant trees than they harvest." " Our Present ForestAbout 30 percent of the 2.3 billion acres of land area (745 million acres) in the U.S. is forest today as compared to about one-half in 1630 (1.0 billion acres). Some 300 million acres of forest land have been converted to other uses since 1630, predominantly because of agricultural uses in the East. The forest resources of the U.S. have continued improving in general condition and quality, as measured by increased average size and volume of trees. This trend has been evident since the 1960s and before. The total forestland acreage has remained stable since 1900." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 I've never heard of vertical farming. Where does the water come from? Trees use a lot more water than corn an I've seen fields of dried up corn due to lack of hydration. Trees have tap roots and can survive much better than shallow root plants. They dig their own wells in a manner of speaking. In years where there is a shortage of water, the rings are smaller. I remember that from the old days when we used to count rings to see a tree's age. I wouldn't say a tree uses more water than corn and wheat, but you might be right about that. It uses the water closest to the surface, however, which is partly explained at the bottom of the article i linked to in my response to oldtimer below. I've seen them on TV. They are used in cities where there is a lack of land for traditional farming and gardening. They provide food much closer to the consumer, saving transportation costs. It's a cool concept. There probably aren't many trees on the great plains for a reason, but there is also a lot of farmland that has been cleared of trees which could be reforested. "As seen on TV" That could be the decal on the DIY vertical farming kit we build. You didn't know we were starting a company, did you? I wondered about the great planes lack of trees myself. I found this article that helped me understand better. Be warned, this guy starts out a bit cranky. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2604/why-dont-trees-grow-on-the-great-plains You are right on about reforesting. Thanks to the articles dtel posted I now know this is in the process and has been now for some time. Yippy! You all can probably tell I like trees. Thought I read something about this a while back, so I went looking. http://www.greenoptimistic.com/united-states-trees/#.V2LJkTH2ahc http://forestry.about.com/library/bl_us_forest_acre_trend.htm "Thanks to decades of forest growth exceeding harvesting rates the US officially has more trees now compared to 100 years ago. The United States has the fourth largest forest estate of any nation, with 8% of the world’s forests or about 300 million hectares of forest, exceeded only by the Russian Federation, Brazil and Canada. Thanks to sustainable harvesting practices, creation of National Parks and less land being turned to agriculture the rate of forest growth has steadily climbed in the US. In fact, many forestry companies now plant trees than they harvest." " Our Present Forest About 30 percent of the 2.3 billion acres of land area (745 million acres) in the U.S. is forest today as compared to about one-half in 1630 (1.0 billion acres). Some 300 million acres of forest land have been converted to other uses since 1630, predominantly because of agricultural uses in the East. The forest resources of the U.S. have continued improving in general condition and quality, as measured by increased average size and volume of trees. This trend has been evident since the 1960s and before. The total forestland acreage has remained stable since 1900." Excellent links. We need to bring in some people for our startup. Pre-fab vertical farms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 They're neat for lettuce and whatnot, they have a small scale of this in Epcot where one little 10' wide area produces like 6,000 pounds of lettuce a year. I just can't imagine it being used on a large enough scale to replace all the corn and wheat fields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 I wouldn't say a tree uses more water than corn and wheat, but you might be right about that. They use a LOT. I remember having the discussion with the owner of a company that does foundation repair. Trees dry out the soil beneath the houses, causing the dirt to shrink and slabs to settle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) Thanks for the link. Trees do this, because they are taking water from the tap root when it gets dry. Top soil holds moisture for undergrowth to survive and for the surface roots of the trees. The more trees and the deeper the tap root, the more earth there is to dehydrate and therefore the more sinking there could be. Cut the tree down, and the water level will rise just like water in a reservoir. Trees have the ability to use the water that got past the top plants and top soil, and since they have this hat trick, they would tend to live through dry spells better than plants without tap roots. Edited June 16, 2016 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 Most of the trees around here have roots like THIS. There's very little tap root. The most common are Live Oaks (sometimes called Pin Oaks). The roots extend past the canopy which is how they get under your house. After hurricanes, you can look at the blown over trees and see that there's no tap root. It may be due to the high water table as out city is roughly 30' above sea level. We also have a predominately sandy upper soil with clay below that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 It looks then like the top roots are not allowing any of the water to get through at all. This tells me that either way the water is going to tend to dehydrate below trees and eventually cause the water table to lower more and more if big rains don't happen or if the soil doesn't perk well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 I found a nice article that tells about how trees grow deeper tap roots based on variety but just as much as that, the soil they are in. http://www.deeproot.com/blog/blog-entries/how-deep-do-tree-roots-grow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted June 19, 2016 Moderators Share Posted June 19, 2016 One half of the Earth's O2 comes from the ocean. I don't know if a forest of trees puts out more O2 per acre than an acre of O2, but I don't think the answer is replacing corn. You are certainly on the right track, what needs replacing is asphalt and concrete, more urban gardens. A good example is Fenway Park, they has installed a garden over some of their offices. http://greencitygrowers.com/fenway-farms/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted June 19, 2016 Author Share Posted June 19, 2016 That's a pretty neat business. One thing that will limit them is that the roof has to be over-engineered by 100 lbs per sq ft for a rooftop garden. That's 5 tons per 10' x 10' section. My SuperDuty is lighter at something like 65 lbs/sqft.... They like upper levels of parking garages which makes sense as long as nobody needs to park up there. http://greencitygrowers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Restaurant-On-Site-Food-Production-2014.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twk123 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 That's a pretty neat business. One thing that will limit them is that the roof has to be over-engineered by 100 lbs per sq ft for a rooftop garden. That's 5 tons per 10' x 10' section. My SuperDuty is lighter at something like 65 lbs/sqft.... They like upper levels of parking garages which makes sense as long as nobody needs to park up there. http://greencitygrowers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Restaurant-On-Site-Food-Production-2014.pdf This is a great idea. Especially if you had hydroponic farms under greenhouses on the tops of grocery stores so you will always have fresh produce free from pesticides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Morbius Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 They have to stop tearing up the Amazonian forests, and the biodiversity. Just my 2 cents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 They have to stop tearing up the Amazonian forests, and the biodiversity. Just my 2 cents. Right you are! America did the same thing. We are just now starting to replant the forests they took out. Thought I read something about this a while back, so I went looking. http://www.greenoptimistic.com/united-states-trees/#.V2LJkTH2ahc http://forestry.about.com/library/bl_us_forest_acre_trend.htm "Thanks to decades of forest growth exceeding harvesting rates the US officially has more trees now compared to 100 years ago. The United States has the fourth largest forest estate of any nation, with 8% of the world’s forests or about 300 million hectares of forest, exceeded only by the Russian Federation, Brazil and Canada. Thanks to sustainable harvesting practices, creation of National Parks and less land being turned to agriculture the rate of forest growth has steadily climbed in the US. In fact, many forestry companies now plant trees than they harvest." " Our Present Forest About 30 percent of the 2.3 billion acres of land area (745 million acres) in the U.S. is forest today as compared to about one-half in 1630 (1.0 billion acres). Some 300 million acres of forest land have been converted to other uses since 1630, predominantly because of agricultural uses in the East. The forest resources of the U.S. have continued improving in general condition and quality, as measured by increased average size and volume of trees. This trend has been evident since the 1960s and before. The total forestland acreage has remained stable since 1900." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) All this talk of indoor farming and hydroponics made me think of a coworker. He is a type 1 diabetic so he can't eat as much sweet stuff as he wants and it drives him crazy. What he does instead is grow "miracle fruit". He imported these plants that make berries that trick your tastebuds into thinking something is sweet when it is sour in reality. I've tried it before, it's the weirdest thing, you can lick a lime and it tastes like it is coated in sugar but without the texture of course. Very popular over in Japan apparently. They usually use these tablets of packed powder instead of the raw berries though. You set it under your tongue and let it dissolve, the effect lasts for maybe 30 minutes. Anyway, this guy converted a good chunk of his upstairs into growing it, has hydrophonic stuff, heat lamps, the whole 9 yards. He lives in town and has always been afraid of getting raided due to cops riding around with infrared cameras and thinking it is something else, but nobody has ever said anything. Edited June 20, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 That's brilliant. I found a link to the plant on wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synsepalum_dulcificum It would suck if he got raided. Let's hope they ring the doorbell with a finger and not a battering ram. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 The dudes that know (Ohio State University Forestry) in Ohio say that a 100 year old oak tree will use 200 to 300 gallons of water per day and the root system will extend outward the same distance as the height of the tree. The furthest out roots are micro tiny. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 They have to stop tearing up the Amazonian forests, and the biodiversity. Just my 2 cents. The politics of that position is interesting. "Sure, America says we ought not to use our resources for our own good. Yet America used its resources to grow and prosper to where it is today." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.